The Holy War 2017

[David Stern]

Just saw a tweet that really put things in perspective.

BYU coaching records in the rivalry game going back to Lavell's last 8 years of coaching:

Lavell: 3-5
Crowton: 1-3
Bronco: 3-7
Sitake: 0-2

That's a 7-17 record over the last the last 24 years. I realize that this rivalry has more close games than any other rivalry, but this stat certainly supports the idea that BYU's program has some serious catching up to do. To add to that, I don't think it's getting easier for them anytime soon. Utah lost an awful lot of talent in 2016 and were still able to go get a win in Provo. When BYU comes to SLC next year, they're going to see an awful lot of the same players they saw last night.

I'm not completely disagreeing with your point, but that tweet is absolutely cherry picking statistics. Picking 24 years to go back is a pretty random sample to look at things. If you want to go back that far, you might as well do it by decade:

1990-1999: Utah 5 BYU 5
2000-2009: Utah 5 BYU 5
2010-2017: Utah 7 BYU 0

Basically you have two decades where the programs were basically at the same level, and now a decade where one team is superior to the other.

My thoughts are that there is absolutely a difference in the talent level of these programs right now, but BYU can close the gap. Bronco was a terrible recruiter, and I honestly believe that is the difference in the rivalry right now. Kalani is a much better recruiter, but unfortunately we're still almost two seasons away from seeing "his" guys here because of the mission thing. I've seen you guys ranked between 20-40 the last few years, and I think that's pretty much going to be the ceiling of what Utah can expect. Getting those kind of recruiting classes on a consistent basis is a great thing for your program, but my point is that you're probably not going to see the gap in talent between the two programs grow any more than it has at this point.

 

[NAOS]

I'm not completely disagreeing with your point, but that tweet is absolutely cherry picking statistics. Picking 24 years to go back is a pretty random sample to look at things. If you want to go back that far, you might as well do it by decade:

1990-1999: Utah 5 BYU 5
2000-2009: Utah 5 BYU 5
2010-2017: Utah 7 BYU 0

Basically you have two decades where the programs were basically at the same level, and now a decade where one team is superior to the other.

My thoughts are that there is absolutely a difference in the talent level of these programs right now, but BYU can close the gap. Bronco was a terrible recruiter, and I honestly believe that is the difference in the rivalry right now. Kalani is a much better recruiter, but unfortunately we're still almost two seasons away from seeing "his" guys here because of the mission thing. I've seen you guys ranked between 20-40 the last few years, and I think that's pretty much going to be the ceiling of what Utah can expect. Getting those kind of recruiting classes on a consistent basis is a great thing for your program, but my point is that you're probably not going to see the gap in talent between the two programs grow any more than it has at this point.

You respond to 'cherry-picking' by (a) cherry-picking yourself and (b) putting all your faith in players that haven't played in a game yet (which is just another flavor of cherry picking since it places faith in what you'd like to be a faithful depiction of reality).

Good for you?

 

[fishonjazz]

It sounds like you're saying that Utah 'didn't play like crap' (i.e. they were good), and BYU played poorly, and yet it was still a close game. In other words, it sounds like a strange backdoor-style silver lining for BYU fans. Which is funny.

Every account of the game suggests that Utah was guilty of plenty of unforced/self-inflicted errors which, despite the wide gap in talent between teams, put the game in jeopardy. <--- that is one fool-proof definition of playing poorly. There are others. But, yeah, that's one.

Nah
Their defense was great. Special teams were great. Quarterback was fantastic. They struggled with penalties, had some turnovers, and settled for field goals too often in a rivalry road game with a new offensive system, and a really young team after losing lots of guys to the nfl last year.
imo they played just fine.

Byu on the other hand played very poorly on offense, defense, and special teams.

Again, it's just my opinion. If you think they sucked, then I'm fine with that.

 

[fishonjazz]

Pretty good tuneup game for us. Did everything it was supposed to do. Exposed a few more weaknesses and things that we need to work on while also giving us an opportunity to get more used to the new offense. All in all, it could have been a lot better, yes, but it also could've been a lot worse for us.

I'm pretty excited about Tyler Huntley.

BYU will be fine. I know it's a disappointing loss but it wasn't altogether unexpected.

@NOAS
This ute fan gets what I'm trying to say.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Basically you have two decades where the programs were basically at the same level, and now a decade where one team is superior to the other.

My thoughts are that there is absolutely a difference in the talent level of these programs right now, but BYU can close the gap. Bronco was a terrible recruiter, and I honestly believe that is the difference in the rivalry right now. Kalani is a much better recruiter, but unfortunately we're still almost two seasons away from seeing "his" guys here because of the mission thing. I've seen you guys ranked between 20-40 the last few years, and I think that's pretty much going to be the ceiling of what Utah can expect. Getting those kind of recruiting classes on a consistent basis is a great thing for your program, but my point is that you're probably not going to see the gap in talent between the two programs grow any more than it has at this point.

Yeah, I think you're kidding yourself if you believe the recruiting issue is an individual problem that can fixed by bringing in a better recruiter. BYU has multiple disadvantages in recruiting, some of which could possibly be fixed, and some that never will, and just come with the territory. Right now, kids can see 2 schools that have gone in 2 different directions. Good luck convincing them that water isn't wet and the sky isn't blue.

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

I didn't mind Whit going for it on 4th down (even if math told me you kick the FG to make it 3 possessions or 2x TD's and 2x 2pt conversions) I just didn't like the play call it was basically the same play call as they ran except this time Huntley handed it to Moss when the blocking scheme seemed designed for him to keep it and go right.

I see plenty of things to disparage Huntley on but none of it can't be filed under "young" and "growing pains" but he's over thrown 3-4 TD's in 2 games, was late on reads/didn't trust his first read (if he saw it) but I am impressed with his demeanor and remaining calm when ***** hits the fan. He's had so many snaps at his feet and managed to still make plays out of it, so that combined with his running and throwing on the run along with these are just growing pain mistakes have me excited for the future.


There must be a point of emphasis on offensive penalties this year, I've never seen this many called in a season let a lone in 2 games, I remember being frustrated watching conference games thinking wish they'd call penalties on the WR's and now these are being called when in past years there were plays twice as bad never called (the WR holds and PI's specifically). I just hope other teams in the PAC12 get these called cause I see them just about every damn game against teams playing press man coverage, which is what the U wants to play the majority of the time.

 

[David Stern]

You respond to 'cherry-picking' by (a) cherry-picking yourself and (b) putting all your faith in players that haven't played in a game yet (which is just another flavor of cherry picking since it places faith in what you'd like to be a faithful depiction of reality).

Good for you?

I'm not sure what your argument is here, but I think the only stat that is relevant in this discussion is the fact that Utah has won 7 straight. I was just disputing the fact that this has been a 25 year turnaround where Utah suddenly started dominating the rivalry. It's only been within the last 7 years, it was even before that.

And while I don't expect you to follow BYU recruiting heavily, they've missed on guys that Bronco was too lazy to recruit, and I expect that to turn around under Kalani. Sorry but there's nothing in my post that is too far fetched to believe.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

....I was just disputing the fact that this has been a 25 year turnaround where Utah suddenly started dominating the rivalry. It's only been within the last 7 years, it was even before that....

All I can say to this statement is....WOW. Utah has won 17 of the last 24 rivalry games. Lavell was 3-5 in his last 8. Crowton was 1-3. Bronco 3-7, and Kilani 0-2. It's been a mighty long time since a BYU coach has had an above .500 stretch vs Utah. In fact, over the last 30 years, Utah's played above .500 football in the rivalry. Lavell struggled to beat Utah in the last decade of his career and every BYU coach since hasn't been able to muster even a .500 record vs Utah. The tide in this rivalry absolutely began to turn 25+ years ago.

The fact of the matter is that BYU absolutely dominated the rivalry in the Lavell era until McBride was hired. McBride basically brought Utah back to the point where they could play BYU evenly (he was 1 game under .500 vs BYU during his Utah tenure) and since the Urban/Whitt era, we have seen Utah take a firm grasp of the series (Utah's 11-3 vs BYU since the Meyer hiring).

I constantly hear BYU fans talk about getting back to the Lavell era dominance of the rivalry, but I just don't see it happening. Hell, even with all the games Lavell won against Utah, the Utes still enjoy nearly a 30 win advantage in the overall series. To say that it's just been the last 7 years in which Utah has separated from BYU just isn't true.

 

[NAOS]

All I can say to this statement is....WOW. Utah has won 17 of the last 24 rivalry games. Lavell was 3-5 in his last 8. Crowton was 1-3. Bronco 3-7, and Kilani 0-2. It's been a mighty long time since a BYU coach has had an above .500 stretch vs Utah. In fact, over the last 30 years, Utah's played above .500 football in the rivalry. Lavell struggled to beat Utah in the last decade of his career and every BYU coach since has been able to muster even a .500 record vs Utah. The tide in this rivalry absolutely began to turn 25+ years ago.

The fact of the matter is that BYU absolutely dominated the rivalry in the Lavell era until McBride was hired. McBride basically brought Utah back to the point where they could play BYU evenly (he was 1 game under .500 vs BYU during his Utah tenure) and since the Urban/Whitt era, we have seen Utah take a firm grasp of the series (Utah's 11-3 vs BYU since the Meyer hiring).

I constantly hear BYU fans talk about getting back to the Lavell era dominance of the rivalry, but I just don't see it happening. Hell, even with all the games Lavell won against Utah, the Utes still enjoy nearly a 30 win advantage in the overall series. To say that it's just been the last 7 years in which Utah has separated from BYU just isn't true.

dat new recruiting doe. NEAR TOTAL FAITH BECAUSE OF TEH EVIDENCE.

 

[gregbroncs]

It sounds like you're saying that Utah 'didn't play like crap' (i.e. they were good), and BYU played poorly, and yet it was still a close game. In other words, it sounds like a strange backdoor-style silver lining for BYU fans. Which is funny.

Every account of the game suggests that Utah was guilty of plenty of unforced/self-inflicted errors which, despite the wide gap in talent between teams, put the game in jeopardy. <--- that is one fool-proof definition of playing poorly. There are others. But, yeah, that's one.

This was my point that he was arguing about with me. Utah played poorly because the talent gap and the way the game was played should have been a 3 TD+ win for Utah. That they only won by 6 despite those factors means they played poorly IMO.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

This was my point that he was arguing about with me. Utah played poorly because the talent gap and the way the game was played should have been a 3 TD+ win for Utah. That they only won by 6 despite those factors means they played poorly IMO.

Count me in. That game definitely wasn't Utah playing a good, complete game. Defense was great, special teams wasn't good considering the long kick return BYU had, Oline was good in pass pro, bad in the run game, RB's weren't good and also gave up a fumble, WR's were good, Huntley was good. For me it comes down to penalties and the "pick" play Utah got called for. I'm sure BYU fans will disagree but there's no way that was a penalty. On the replay you can literally watch the outside BYU DB hesitate on which WR to cover and make the mistake of covering the inside WR. He had as much to do with creating contact as Utah's WR did. Horrible, horrible call that cost Utah a TD. Other than that, Utah's discipline has been astoundingly bad. The amount of penalties in the first 2 games has got to be a school record. They absolutely have to clean it up by the time conference play rolls around.

 

[bigb]

Count me in. That game definitely wasn't Utah playing a good, complete game. Defense was great, special teams wasn't good considering the long kick return BYU had, Oline was good in pass pro, bad in the run game, RB's weren't good and also gave up a fumble, WR's were good, Huntley was good. For me it comes down to penalties and the "pick" play Utah got called for. I'm sure BYU fans will disagree but there's no way that was a penalty. On the replay you can literally watch the outside BYU DB hesitate on which WR to cover and make the mistake of covering the inside WR. He had as much to do with creating contact as Utah's WR did. Horrible, horrible call that cost Utah a TD. Other than that, Utah's discipline has been astoundingly bad. The amount of penalties in the first 2 games has got to be a school record. They absolutely have to clean it up by the time conference play rolls around.

IMO, that wasn't a pick route. That was two BYU DB's covering the same guy. It was a pick route that BYU ran.