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The juxtaposition of the Bojan Bogdanovic approach and the John Collins approach

infection

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This thread is less about the individual players specifically but about the dynamics surrounding the decisions made on each, though there is some specific things about each player relevant.

We moved Bojan last year for what was obviously a lesser total talent. The rationalization was that we were doing this to better balance the roster, that we needed a reliable big, and that Bojan would be occupying too much of the same space as Lauri, so this move solved a few problems to balance things, and that it would make our team better, despite the total talent reduction. This in what was supposed to be a tanking year where winning was irrelevant, if not outright detrimental to long-term goals, thus somewhat odd that we invoke a balanced roster as a necessity as it paid no significant dividends.

Last summer we moved for Collins in somewhat of a clunky fit under the rationalization that we're being opportunistic about acquiring talent and worrying less about fit. We're entering a year where our incentive is to win but we have a completely unbalanced roster, both in the front court and the guard situation and not having a reliable PG. We say that the balance isn't as important as the talent accumulation and opportunity, despite Collins occupying places where Lauri and Kessler are (one argument against Bogdanovic).

We were supposed to lose last year and took back less talent to "be better." We're supposed to "be better" this year and we're trotting out a wonky roster because we're "accumulating talent."

These ideas don't make sense and are backwards. This isn't to isolate one issue against the other, just that any argument to rationalize either approach will be in direct conflict with the rationalization of the other scenario.
 
We don't have an incentive to win this year. Bojan was a money saying move, and you could honestly make the argument that Kelly was a better and younger player with a more team favored contract situation at the time. This idea that it was to balance the roster is total Tony Jones BS speak. No idea how that became a thing, because offensively Bogey is one of the easiest players to fit with in the league.

Collins trade was simply about cashing in on the cap space and being opportunistic. Time will tell if it was a good move, but I don't really see these two moves as a juxtaposition. They are not in conflict with each other.
 
Bojan was an expiring contract that Utah didn't want to extend, so they sent him to Detroit where he got extended. Collins was a long-term contract whose salary could be included to balance a future trade. Plus we got him for free basically, so why not.

If you look at the roster and the moves the front office has made, they do not portray the Jazz as a team that's actually trying to win. Right now, the Jazz have maybe two top-100 players on their roster. They're running a pawn shop with a bunch of players coming and going until they find a few that they really want to build around over the long term. The players the Jazz acquire don't need to make much sense from a rotation/fit perspective.
 
I think it's close, but I'd agree that KO is probably a better player than Bogdanovic. I like Bogey, but I do think he was a little overrated. He shined in areas that were more visible, but KO does a lot more little things that help you win.
 
Detroit would have won that trade had they flipped Bogey for picks last year. But now they are on the losing end cuz they held onto him for too long. But we are making that same exact mistake right now by holding onto Olynyk for too long, especially when it comes at the cost of Kessler's development.
 
We have 4 slasher guards + Keyonte (who hopefully can become something more) crammed into a 10 man rotation none of whom are established great shooters.... and some of you push for Collins bad fit narrative, as well as him being the main source of our fit/spacing issues.

Confirmation bias is a real thing...
 
Detroit would have won that trade had they flipped Bogey for picks last year. But now they are on the losing end cuz they held onto him for too long. But we are making that same exact mistake right now by holding onto Olynyk for too long, especially when it comes at the cost of Kessler's development.
Huh?

On this roster, Olynyk is pretty much the ideal guy to help Walker develop. He's a smart big with a passing mindset and some ballhandling ability.

Getting rid of Olynyk would harm Kessler, not help him.
 
Collins has been pretty good. If you look at his 3pt shots he’s mostly wide open he just need to make them a little bit better. He is also a good ball tracker he can get those rebounds. Kessler is the one who is a little off he don’t play the last 8 minutes of the game. he’s not disruptive as he used to be. He need to get better otherwise somebody’s gonna take his minutes.
 
Collins has been pretty good. If you look at his 3pt shots he’s mostly wide open he just need to make them a little bit better. He is also a good ball tracker he can get those rebounds. Kessler is the one who is a little off he don’t play the last 8 minutes of the game. he’s not disruptive as he used to be. He need to get better otherwise somebody’s gonna take his minutes.
I don't think anyone's taking Kessler's minutes (at least no more than Collins has already done). Maybe if we were dead set on going for the playoffs and trying to win as much as possible, but this seems like another "tank lite" season.
 
We have 4 slasher guards + Keyonte (who hopefully can become something more) crammed into a 10 man rotation none of whom are established great shooters.... and some of you push for Collins bad fit narrative, as well as him being the main source of our fit/spacing issues.

Confirmation bias is a real thing...
I didn’t say any of this.
 
This thread is less about the individual players specifically but about the dynamics surrounding the decisions made on each, though there is some specific things about each player relevant.

We moved Bojan last year for what was obviously a lesser total talent. The rationalization was that we were doing this to better balance the roster, that we needed a reliable big, and that Bojan would be occupying too much of the same space as Lauri, so this move solved a few problems to balance things, and that it would make our team better, despite the total talent reduction. This in what was supposed to be a tanking year where winning was irrelevant, if not outright detrimental to long-term goals, thus somewhat odd that we invoke a balanced roster as a necessity as it paid no significant dividends.

Last summer we moved for Collins in somewhat of a clunky fit under the rationalization that we're being opportunistic about acquiring talent and worrying less about fit. We're entering a year where our incentive is to win but we have a completely unbalanced roster, both in the front court and the guard situation and not having a reliable PG. We say that the balance isn't as important as the talent accumulation and opportunity, despite Collins occupying places where Lauri and Kessler are (one argument against Bogdanovic).

We were supposed to lose last year and took back less talent to "be better." We're supposed to "be better" this year and we're trotting out a wonky roster because we're "accumulating talent."

These ideas don't make sense and are backwards. This isn't to isolate one issue against the other, just that any argument to rationalize either approach will be in direct conflict with the rationalization of the other scenario.
I see where you are coming from here but I think the narrative around these moves is something we and the local writers do… I think Ainge kinda just does things without some final blue print (at least for now). So he need to trade Bogey for various reasons and trades for KO who is an okay enough player, fits a need, and happens to be enough money savings to duck the tax. Collins becomes available for just salary space and he’s like “sure why not?”. You end up with some weird roster spots as a value hunter.
 
Huh?

On this roster, Olynyk is pretty much the ideal guy to help Walker develop. He's a smart big with a passing mindset and some ballhandling ability.

Getting rid of Olynyk would harm Kessler, not help him.
Well then KO is in the wrong professional. He should be sitting on the coaching staff's bench, not players. Who was the guy helping SGA develop in OKC, when they had one of the leagues youngest roster? Who was the guy helping Tatum develop in Boston? Kyrie? Who is the guy helping Wemby develop in San Antonio now? We had the trio of Marvin/Big Al/Millsap nurturing Kanter/Favs back during the Corbin era, and did we go anywhere with that?

The so-called veteran presence is massively overrated. We hired a whole coaching team dedicated to players development, and it's no use if we are giving our young players barely 20min a night, or sending them to the G league.
 
Well then KO is in the wrong professional. He should be sitting on the coaching staff's bench, not players. Who was the guy helping SGA develop in OKC, when they had one of the leagues youngest roster? Who was the guy helping Tatum develop in Boston? Kyrie? Who is the guy helping Wemby develop in San Antonio now? We had the trio of Marvin/Big Al/Millsap nurturing Kanter/Favs back during the Corbin era, and did we go anywhere with that?

The so-called veteran presence is massively overrated. We hired a whole coaching team dedicated to players development, and it's no use if we are giving our young players barely 20min a night, or sending them to the G league.

Well for starters shai had chris Paul for a season and Tatum had Hayward for his first two seasons who is a D bag but was an established vet in the league at the position Tatum plays

Having a mentor isn’t a necessity but those were bad examples and I’m sure it helps so to say it doesn’t matter at all is stupid in my opinion


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I didn’t say any of this.
The point of your post is to question the logic that we got rid of Bojan due to fit issues, and later trade for Collins who is a bad fit. Add to that the time you brought this up, and its clear you are pointing fingers at least a little bit here.

I know you are not dismissing the other roster issues as you pointed one (lack of PG) out in the OP of this thread, but I dont think we should make any statements about the frontcourt before we see some solid guard play for at least a few games..

We have all seen how bad it is for the 4 veteran guards, but just to highlight it through the stats:
Clarkson PIE 6.9 with 49.7% TS and 1.56 AST/TO
Sexton PIE 5.2 with 49.3% TS and 1.2 AST/TO
THT PIE 5.0 with 38.4% TS and 4.33 AST/TO (awesome assist to turnover ratio but still super low impact!)
Dunn PIE 0.8 with 36.8% TS and 1.0 AST/TO

I know PIE isnt anyones favourite all around stat but it was the easiest to grab and shows the general direction of things. Among the 196 guards to play in the NBA this year, Clarkson ranks 123rd, Sexton 139th, THT 141st and Dunn 168th.

FWIW
Keyonte is 50th with 12.3 (respectable) and Ochai is 159th with 1.7 (horrible).
 
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