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The New American Center | Esquire Magazine/ NBC

I think that in my case I am politically engaged. I hold some opinions that are at odds with the right and the left. Putting me in the center is also inappropriate because most of my views really can't be categorized as centrist. For instance I answered yes to legalizing prostitution which last time I checked wasn't exactly a centrists position. I find the polls that give results on a coordinate plane to be more insightful.

This is what I was trying to get across in the other thread where this topic came up. I have opinions on different ends of the spectrum and down the middle, but really in the end I am strongly for individual rights and very strongly for personal responsibility and accountability. Maybe that last part came from being raised by parents of the tail end of the depression era where the mantra was really suck it up, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep moving, and you only really get and deserve what you earn.
 
Because the cut-off for what makes a human a human is completely arbitrary for the pro-choice movement. There is no logical connection between a fetus's dependence on the mother for its survival, and the mother's inherent right to end the life of the fetus. After all, pregnancies don't just happen. They're the result of sexual intercourse that you should be prepared for if you want to be sexually active. I've had long discussions with pro-choicers over the years, including one with One Brow. And the best justification he could come up with was an analogy to a person who sees someone dying, but chooses to withhold help. In pro-choicers view, it is completely within the person's right whether or not to help, and thus dependency is always an imposition and is always a sufficient justification for ending said dependency. That's not exactly the most compassionate view of morality, and it is a far cry from the left's pretension of abortion access being a basic human right. Which isn't surprising since the pro-choice's battle cry is "my body, my choice", which is the same as "I'll do what I want". It ignores all the complaints about the right of a human not to be killed due to no fault of his or her own.

But I'm perfectly happy with exceptions for rape, incest, and out of considerations for the mother's health. There is also the matter of practicality of law. If abortions are banned, then some women will try to perform the procedure themselves. And that's terrible. So I'm willing to live with universal allowances for first-trimester abortions. But I don't have to like it.

So yeah, Islam got it right this time. :p

I don't think that it is arbitrary. I am of the group that believes the cut off should be when the fetus can survive outside the mother. Until then it is not an individual and is part of her imo.
 
I feel close to 100% similar (at least at this point in my life). Thus, if I got a girl pregnant, I would have profound ethical problems with letting my pregnant compatriot abort the child, whether she wanted to or not. It's funny when people say "life doesn't begin at conception, because the embryo is just....a bunch of tissues and cells! Well.. aren't we still just tissues and cells? Sure we're dependent on our mothers at one point, but this doesn't make us any less alive. You have an actual species living inside you, and I find it nuts that people feel comfortable muting its life at any point.


However, it is always tricky deciding between what is "morally right", and what should be legislated in society.


The problem you mentioned with regards to practicality of law is a HUGE one, particularly in the developing world. Countries that "ban" abortion don't really have their abortion rates drop-- however, the amount of deaths to mothers that occur due to abortions rise.

So I dunno. I'm fine with having my taxes hiked a bit to let people have abortions even if its out of pure irresponsibility-- because I'd rather have that, than have stressed teenage females accidentally taking their own lives due to a legislation that won't really stop abortions. It's a lose-lose-- so I'll just have to be pro-life myself, and preach pro-life within the confines of my children and my family. The country can do whatever they want.

Wise beyond your years. Good post.
 
I don't think that it is arbitrary. I am of the group that believes the cut off should be when the fetus can survive outside the mother. Until then it is not an individual and is part of her imo.

But how does that define a human? All animals start out the same way. There is no link between the fact that humans start out as a dependent fetus, and their status as humans. Additionally, how is the fetus NOT dependent after a certain point? Wouldn't still be dependent on a whole team of doctors and machines if it is to be extracted? How about infants, aren't they utterly dependent on their caretakers? Wouldn't a baby die if you do not directly intervene to keep it alive? Is it okay to kill babies too? Believe it or not, some on the extreme of the pro-choice side say YES! And not a few crazies either.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...s-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html

These people are not stupid. That is indeed where the argument of dependence takes us. Is that really the moral outlook we should adopt? Is that really the definition we want for what a human is?
 
But how does that define a human? All animals start out the same way. There is no link between the fact that humans start out as a dependent fetus, and their status as humans. Additionally, how is the fetus NOT dependent after a certain point? Wouldn't still be dependent on a whole team of doctors and machines if it is to be extracted? How about infants, aren't they utterly dependent on their caretakers? Wouldn't a baby die if you do not directly intervene to keep it alive? Is it okay to kill babies too? Believe it or not, some on the extreme of the pro-choice side say YES! And not a few crazies either.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...s-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html

These people are not stupid. That is indeed where the argument of dependence takes us. Is that really the moral outlook we should adopt? Is that really the definition we want for what a human is?

If the definition is independent then we could abort all the way through age 12 to 16 on most kids, much later on some, like my neighbor's "kid" who is 30 and in no way could live on by his loser self.
 
But how does that define a human? All animals start out the same way. There is no link between the fact that humans start out as a dependent fetus, and their status as humans. Additionally, how is the fetus NOT dependent after a certain point? Wouldn't still be dependent on a whole team of doctors and machines if it is to be extracted? How about infants, aren't they utterly dependent on their caretakers? Wouldn't a baby die if you do not directly intervene to keep it alive? Is it okay to kill babies too? Believe it or not, some on the extreme of the pro-choice side say YES! And not a few crazies either.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...s-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html

These people are not stupid. That is indeed where the argument of dependence takes us. Is that really the moral outlook we should adopt? Is that really the definition we want for what a human is?

Let me be clear these are my legal views not necessarily my moral views.

It doesn't define a human. That definition is not the central calculus for my position.

In my view both the woman and fetus have rights however the fetuses rights and needs do not supersede the rights of the woman.

I think that a woman has the right to decide to remove a child from her body at any time. If she decides to make this decision after the point of viability then the doctor should do everything in their power to preserve the life of the child. I am willing to accept an abortion procedure before the point of viability simply because the child would not survive the birth anyway.

Morally speaking I would hope that a woman would decide to carry the child full term but I will not impose my morality on others.
 
Because the cut-off for what makes a human a human is completely arbitrary for the pro-choice movement. There is no logical connection between a fetus's dependence on the mother for its survival, and the mother's inherent right to end the life of the fetus. After all, pregnancies don't just happen. They're the result of sexual intercourse that you should be prepared for if you want to be sexually active. I've had long discussions with pro-choicers over the years, including one with One Brow. And the best justification he could come up with was an analogy to a person who sees someone dying, but chooses to withhold help. In pro-choicers view, it is completely within the person's right whether or not to help, and thus dependency is always an imposition and is always a sufficient justification for ending said dependency. That's not exactly the most compassionate view of morality, and it is a far cry from the left's pretension of abortion access being a basic human right. Which isn't surprising since the pro-choice's battle cry is "my body, my choice", which is the same as "I'll do what I want". It ignores all the complaints about the right of a human not to be killed due to no fault of his or her own.

But I'm perfectly happy with exceptions for rape, incest, and out of considerations for the mother's health. There is also the matter of practicality of law. If abortions are banned, then some women will try to perform the procedure themselves. And that's terrible. So I'm willing to live with universal allowances for first-trimester abortions. But I don't have to like it.

So yeah, Islam got it right this time. :p

I feel close to 100% similar (at least at this point in my life). Thus, if I got a girl pregnant, I would have profound ethical problems with letting my pregnant compatriot abort the child, whether she wanted to or not. It's funny when people say "life doesn't begin at conception, because the embryo is just....a bunch of tissues and cells! Well.. aren't we still just tissues and cells? Sure we're dependent on our mothers at one point, but this doesn't make us any less alive. You have an actual species living inside you, and I find it nuts that people feel comfortable muting its life at any point.


However, it is always tricky deciding between what is "morally right", and what should be legislated in society.


The problem you mentioned with regards to practicality of law is a HUGE one, particularly in the developing world. Countries that "ban" abortion don't really have their abortion rates drop-- however, the amount of deaths to mothers that occur due to abortions rise.

So I dunno. I'm fine with having my taxes hiked a bit to let people have abortions even if its out of pure irresponsibility-- because I'd rather have that, than have stressed teenage females accidentally taking their own lives due to a legislation that won't really stop abortions. It's a lose-lose-- so I'll just have to be pro-life myself, and preach pro-life within the confines of my children and my family. The country can do whatever they want.

Good posts.
 
I got bleeding heart. It told me that I knew I was a bleeding heart liberal too. I knew I was liberal, but this lumped me in with the most liberal group out there. Kind of surprising.
 
I've had long discussions with pro-choicers over the years, including one with One Brow. And the best justification he could come up with was an analogy to a person who sees someone dying, but chooses to withhold help.

Since my wife and I am pro-life in our personal life and pro-choice legally, that's how I see it.

But I'm perfectly happy with exceptions for rape, incest, and out of considerations for the mother's health.

This is the position I really have trouble as seeing as consistent. If the fetus is a child when conceived of consensual sex, it's a child when conceived of rape, and if the product of consensual sex has a claim on the woman's body as a result of being a person, so should the child of rape. To say the opposite smacks too much of claiming the fetus for the sins of one parent.
 
But how does that define a human? All animals start out the same way. There is no link between the fact that humans start out as a dependent fetus, and their status as humans.

Humans start out as two different lives, that merge into a single being. Life does not begin at conception, it a change from one stage of life to another.
 
Since my wife and I am pro-life in our personal life and pro-choice legally, that's how I see it.



This is the position I really have trouble as seeing as consistent. If the fetus is a child when conceived of consensual sex, it's a child when conceived of rape, and if the product of consensual sex has a claim on the woman's body as a result of being a person, so should the child of rape. To say the opposite smacks too much of claiming the fetus for the sins of one parent.

This is something I've struggled with as well. I really don't know what the right answer is.
 
Humans start out as two different lives, that merge into a single being. Life does not begin at conception, it a change from one stage of life to another.

I never said life. I said a human. A tomato is life, and you can go ahead and eat it. But a human, with a human's full DNA blueprint, begins at conception.
 
I never said life. I said a human. A tomato is life, and you can go ahead and eat it. But a human, with a human's full DNA blueprint, begins at conception.

Of course, "full complement of DNA" doesn't quite work, either. Besides, gametes are human lives.

Well, enough of this topic, for now.
 
If anyone else read the article about the "New American Center" I would be interested in your thoughts. I think that, despite all the fancy graphics, it is nothing new and hasn't been anything new for 40+ years. I think you would have to go back to the 50's to find a much different description of "moderate".

Which article are you referring to? The "13 things..." One or "The New American..." one?
 
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