The Official "Ask A Mormon" Thread

[Jazz Spazz]

How do we interpret the inadvertent disclosure that the regular activity rate of members is 36%?

https://brucefey.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/lds-spokesman-breaks-down-membership.html

Interesting. I saw the article after some of the numbers had been removed, and wondered what had actually been removed.

Anyway, assuming the 36% is correct, that's a bit higher than the 30% number you and one or two others were throwing around (and I was disputing for lack of evidence) in this thread: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php...ence-Fall-2013&p=668832&viewfull=1#post668832, and a little less than the 40% that was my very rough estimate a couple of days later, here: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?19964-LDS-church-membership-statistics

Seems plausible. Would be very interesting to see a country-by-country breakdown.

One thing to note in trying to draw conclusions from this is that the Church does not define "active" members however you want to call them as coming weekly. I believe I have heard it as once a month, so if you are going by a weekly number it is probably safe to extrapolate the once a month numbers to be higher.

Just something that caught my attention.

 

[babe]

So, anyway, folks. . . .

In my own time I got those calls because some folks thought my ideas were out of line with Church stands. Only rather than take the position of telling them what they should do, I said. . ..

"Tell you what. Me being me and thinking about things in perhaps original ways, I realize my being in the meetings might get controversial. I'm gonna take a break from it, if you don't mind.

"And you folks, when you get done adjusting the official Church doctrines, look me up and tell me what you've decided, OK? "

 

[green]

One thing to note in trying to draw conclusions from this is that the Church does not define "active" members however you want to call them as coming weekly. I believe I have heard it as once a month, so if you are going by a weekly number it is probably safe to extrapolate the once a month numbers to be higher.

Just something that caught my attention.

Once a month is "active."

Sweet.

 

[Gameface]

Someone who feels the LDS scriptures can be interpreted to make the LDS church "more progressive on gender issues" than Bible-based(self-declared though that may be) churches?

The main problem the LDS Church has been fighting for over a hundred years is the fears, misapprehensions, and charges of innovation in doctrines which have been levied by those churches. The LDS Church wants to be more like them.

Actually, there may be elements of the leadership that really want to be progressive, but believe it's better to make progress gradually and thus avoid a lot of heated contentions.

My personal reason for having no issue about her excommunication follows from what you said about her "principled beliefs" trending towards empowering the LDS "faithful" towards "progressive gender issues", which I took as LGBT sorts of issues.

I don't think the LDS or any other church. . . . or for that matter. . . . social engineers with dreams of utopia or convenience for commerce. . . . should be fundamentally more influential than the "collective wisdom" or "social notions" of individuals. government by the people, man.

Too many people want a church with the power to change people to their ideal. Too many people want a government with the power to force people to do is what deemed "right" according to some pinhead idealist. well, even some supersmart practical genius. same dif.

Someone who's bothering the LDS leaders and telling them what to pray for, and what they should do. . . . gotta be a "progressive" who also wants the government to fix everything.. . . . their way.

Nah, Kicky, I might not know who Kate is, but I know why you like her. Ring her up, and tell her you're praying for a way to make God into something you and her both could agree on. You could be the next "Prophet".

I understand the malaise mainstream Christians have about progressive Mormons prattling about some utopia, some "Zion Community". It's fundamentally different from holding a specific traditon sacrosanct.

My fundamental misgiving about Mormonism is the fear that it was started, and led, by "progressives" with a "brave new world" in mind. Most religions probably start with notions like that in some way, but when the main problems are continuity and propagation of the concepts, it will quickly become "conservative".

A hundred years from now, there will be a lot of smart youngsters hooting at your current ideas as "conservative", I suppose. But it is a legitimate question people are entitled to. . . . If it wasn't true in the first place, why should we hold it sacred?.

Kate was like the Israelites of old who tried to steady the Ark, when according to the tradition, God had forbidden anyone but the designated priests to touch the Ark.

Hey babe, every man creates God in his own image.

It's never been any other way.

God is a human construct.

 

[bigb]

I have areas of disagreement with the church, and my belief in God has been wavering for a decade or more now, despite my mission and all that. I would say at this point I am more or less agnostic or at least agnostic-leaning. I am still more or less active in the church, but I simply do not feel anything from it like I did when I was younger or like others claim to do.

I feel good when I get emails from my daughter talking about her mission, and for father's day this year she wrote me a poem that really brought tears to my eyes, but I don't view that as the workings of the "spirit".

After quite a long hiatus (a few years really) my wife and I went back to the temple to be able to escort our daughter through, and then attended several times with her, and I have made a real effort this year in particular to reconnect and see what might be there for me in this religion. But in the temple I really just felt kind of ridiculous. I get that it is all symbolism and I studied it enough earlier in my life that I know what that symbolism for the most part is supposed to be, but in the temple with the clothes on, etc. I just kind of felt silly, and none of it resonated.

I felt like I was there with an open heart, as I had been preparing to help my daughter have a good experience there, which included reading the BoM for the first time in maybe a decade. But all I felt was silly. And frankly I was disappointed that I didn't have the same spiritual experience my wife and daughter obviously did.

Maybe I am just not on the same spiritual plane, or, as the thought that occurred to me in the celestial room in the Salt Lake temple, maybe this is all window-dressing and really is just silly. I honestly don't know, which is why I feel I relate more as an agnostic than anything else right now.

I have had experiences in my life that I cannot explain, and fit religious explanations better than anything else I can imagine. Experiences connected to my cancer, things to do with my kids, and other things that are just too perfect to have been coincidence, including a near-death experience I have spoken of here before. And it is these experiences that I feel I cannot deny, that when I try to deny them I feel just, well, wrong inside, that keep me from leaving it entirely at this point.

Don't know why I went on that ramble, but it feels good getting it out in the open. I cannot talk to my wife about this, or my parents, or my children. I have few friends that get it, and I have broached the subject with a few and all I get is either "yeah get out of that brain-washing thing" or "you just need to pray about it harder" as the standard responses in one form or another.

This is a great post and I have something to share, but it's WAY mire than I want to type on my phone. Next week sometime I'll have time at my desktop.

Ok, I finally have a few minutes siting at my desktop without a three month old on my lap, so here I go. This will probably come across like I'm a blithering, jumbled idiot, but what the hell.

Over the last 9 years or so, I have gone through extreme highs and lows (mostly lows) in my spirituality. At one point in time, I told my wife I was done with church. I was just going to walk away from it all. Currently, I'm in a kind of "meh" state. I've been to sacrament meeting once in the last 5 months or so. I go to the other meetings about every other week. Haven't been to the temple in well over a year.
What I've come to realize is that all of my external influences weigh a great deal on all of this. I truly hate my ward, which plays a great deal into it. It's no coincidence that my downward feelings coincide with me moving into my current house. There are a few people that I've connected with here (most of which have moved out now), but as a general rule, the people in my ward are assholes. There was even a neighbor who told a new person who moved in next door to them not to talk to us because we were "inactive". At that point in time, we had a newborn, it was winter, and we simply weren't taking him out. Anywhere. I was taking the other kids to primary most weeks. But since this neighbor (it was the wife) wasn't seeing my wife at church, we were inactive and not worthy of being included in things. Explain to me how Christ-like that is. I freaking hate it here. I would sell my house and move tomorrow, but for some reason, God doesn't want me to. And to be honest, it's really starting to piss me off. Now, I know people will tell me that I control my own feelings. Yes, this is true. But it's all interconnected and cyclical. When I hate my ward, I don't want to go church. When I don't go to church, I don't make the connections with the people. Apparently, when I don't make the connections, I'm deemed inactive or unworthy of inclusion into the many cliques of my ward. Because of these cliques, I hate my ward and don't want to go to church.
I've come to the conclusion (maybe I've simply talked myself into it as justification) that God alone knows what I'm feeling and why. He alone knows what's truly going on in my head. The beauty of it all is that He's the only one I really have to answer to. So I keep plugging along trying to do the best I can and be a contributing member of society trying to honestly help people and see the good in all men. If my activity or spirituality wane a little at times, oh freaking well. It will all work out in the end.
I know this isn't a complete relation to what you shared, but reading your post made me think of all these things, so I wanted to share it.

 

[green]

Bigb - I think your last paragraph sums it up perfectly. You're trying. That's all that matters. Only you know you're intents with God. If you honestly tried, when you stand before him, you'll be ok.

The key is having that honest intent.

 

[Stoked]

Once a month is "active."

Sweet.

It can be, imo. Do they fulfill callings? Active in non Sunday ward activities? Have the sacrament brought to their home? Read the scriptures and pray?

 

[LogGrad98]

I have turned down 3 callings in my current ward. One because I knew I would have no time to do it due to my work schedule, the others with the simple request that I simply be allowed to be a member for a while. It kind of bugs me that they feel a need to get everyone a calling the second they enter the ward then you end up as the 2nd sunday assistant backup teacher in deacon's quorum or something equally inane. Sometimes it really makes me question how much of that is done through inspiration (yes, Brother Grad, I felt the spirit whisper to me that we need a 2nd sunday assistant backup teacher in the deacon's quorum, and it told me you need that calling.... :/ ..) or how much it just to check off the list that they have given everyone a calling.

So I made my own calling. I coordinate and execute moves of members and non-members alike within our ward boundaries (and 2 other wards nearby). So I find out who is moving in or out and coordinate the move so there are people there to help, find out what the people need, and then follow up to get the move done. If it is non-members I get the missionaries to help. Our best time is a little over 2 hours to pack a 5 bedroom house in 2 U-hauls. 22 people showed up to help. It was well-orchestrated as we had 2 "spotters" to tell people where to put stuff to get the best loads possible, and I got the bishop to provide about 8 dozen donuts, milk and juice. It was a blast. I figure that is one way I can be active, so that is what I do. And of course my kids hate it so that is an added benefit.

 

[bigb]

I have turned down 3 callings in my current ward. One because I knew I would have no time to do it due to my work schedule, the others with the simple request that I simply be allowed to be a member for a while. It kind of bugs me that they feel a need to get everyone a calling the second they enter the ward then you end up as the 2nd sunday assistant backup teacher in deacon's quorum or something equally inane. Sometimes it really makes me question how much of that is done through inspiration (yes, Brother Grad, I felt the spirit whisper to me that we need a 2nd sunday assistant backup teacher in the deacon's quorum, and it told me you need that calling.... :/ ..) or how much it just to check off the list that they have given everyone a calling.

So I made my own calling. I coordinate and execute moves of members and non-members alike within our ward boundaries (and 2 other wards nearby). So I find out who is moving in or out and coordinate the move so there are people there to help, find out what the people need, and then follow up to get the move done. If it is non-members I get the missionaries to help. Our best time is a little over 2 hours to pack a 5 bedroom house in 2 U-hauls. 22 people showed up to help. It was well-orchestrated as we had 2 "spotters" to tell people where to put stuff to get the best loads possible, and I got the bishop to provide about 8 dozen donuts, milk and juice. It was a blast. I figure that is one way I can be active, so that is what I do. And of course my kids hate it so that is an added benefit.

They made me scoutmaster in my ward. When they called me I laughed and explained exactly how little time I have. Literally every Friday night is booked. Approximately 90% of Saturday mornings are booked, year round. That automatically excludes me from campouts. At the time, and still, I'm working until about 8 pm 5 days a week. That excludes me from weeknight scout meetings. The Bishop said "well, we still want you to give it a try." I agreed to do it for a couple months as a trial. I literally did not attend a single scout meeting in that time. I went back and told the Bishop to release me and that he shouldn't have called me to it. I sometimes think that the bishopric thinks that if they can get you into the calling, you'll feel guilty and forget everything else and put your calling before it all, family included.

 

[b_line]

Big b. Sounds like you should move bro. I hated my last ward. Luckily I move like literally every six months.

 

[babe]

Hey babe, every man creates God in his own image.

It's never been any other way.

God is a human construct.

Some people define "God" as the one being, or one "First Cause" that is indeed all-powerful, totally sovereign, and totally above Man and whatever we may or may not think. . . . something that goes on Being whether we like it or not.

You may be right about the way people imagine "God" to be, you might even be right about there being no God of any kind.

I might even be in your camp, or dangling a toe in that stream of thought sometimes, because. . . . I don't think I have to insist on the infallibility of Man or anyone claiming to represent "God" in this or any other age. Because I don't think we can define "God" and make that "God" of our imagination real, according to our wishes. I extend that caveat to those who wrote the Bible and the LDS scriptures, or any other book about God or presenting any information or concepts relating to God. We obviously don't now have, and never have had, such conclusive and incontrovertible notions that God must accept as His definition.

Did the writers of Biblical texts know everything? Mostly, the claim of even the "infallible Bible" folks, is that God inspired men in some manner with something that can be taken as better than simply "made by Man". A lot of people consider that for the things which God may have "inspired", it will take God to prove it right.

Game, it looks to me like you've limited your thinking about God to something that is trivial, if not meaningless. Convenient to do that for anyone who just doesn't care if there is something/someone who is actually relevant and important to our life decisions.

 

[babe]

big b,

OK, I'll spare you my philosophical meanderings. I like people like you who can make decisions like yours.

The God I imagine loves people like you, and understands feelings like yours. I would hazard the speculation that such a God would actually welcome you into a more direct and more personal sort of life path with Him as your best friend. All you really need to to do is accept that the direct connection with God is the more relevant one, than the social connection. Might ultimately develop into an understanding of other people that doesn't "need" their acceptance or understanding exactly, at least not on the level it is sometimes in a church group where "activity" is somehow measured as a criteria for treating one another decently.

When you get that sense of a relationship, and of a personal value in God's eyes, in first place, it gets easier to just be compassionate about the stupidity the rest of us are prone to. . . . and then it just wouldn't matter if the whole Church thought you were a real pariah like me. (joking, sorta)

 

[♪alt13]

Ok, I finally have a few minutes siting at my desktop without a three month old on my lap, so here I go. This will probably come across like I'm a blithering, jumbled idiot, but what the hell.

Over the last 9 years or so, I have gone through extreme highs and lows (mostly lows) in my spirituality. At one point in time, I told my wife I was done with church. I was just going to walk away from it all. Currently, I'm in a kind of "meh" state. I've been to sacrament meeting once in the last 5 months or so. I go to the other meetings about every other week. Haven't been to the temple in well over a year.
What I've come to realize is that all of my external influences weigh a great deal on all of this. I truly hate my ward, which plays a great deal into it. It's no coincidence that my downward feelings coincide with me moving into my current house. There are a few people that I've connected with here (most of which have moved out now), but as a general rule, the people in my ward are assholes. There was even a neighbor who told a new person who moved in next door to them not to talk to us because we were "inactive". At that point in time, we had a newborn, it was winter, and we simply weren't taking him out. Anywhere. I was taking the other kids to primary most weeks. But since this neighbor (it was the wife) wasn't seeing my wife at church, we were inactive and not worthy of being included in things. Explain to me how Christ-like that is. I freaking hate it here. I would sell my house and move tomorrow, but for some reason, God doesn't want me to. And to be honest, it's really starting to piss me off. Now, I know people will tell me that I control my own feelings. Yes, this is true. But it's all interconnected and cyclical. When I hate my ward, I don't want to go church. When I don't go to church, I don't make the connections with the people. Apparently, when I don't make the connections, I'm deemed inactive or unworthy of inclusion into the many cliques of my ward. Because of these cliques, I hate my ward and don't want to go to church.
I've come to the conclusion (maybe I've simply talked myself into it as justification) that God alone knows what I'm feeling and why. He alone knows what's truly going on in my head. The beauty of it all is that He's the only one I really have to answer to. So I keep plugging along trying to do the best I can and be a contributing member of society trying to honestly help people and see the good in all men. If my activity or spirituality wane a little at times, oh freaking well. It will all work out in the end.
I know this isn't a complete relation to what you shared, but reading your post made me think of all these things, so I wanted to share it.

This is why I live in SLC. I'm an atheist and my daughters best friends that she plays with daily are mormon. It has never once been an issue. We have thought about selling and buying a bigger home with a bigger yard deep in suburbia but I don't think my children would be treated fairly by the neighbors.

My family is mormon though my immediate family was never really active. I remember when I was kid one of my friends being completely ostracized because his parents were catholic. I absolutely love the geography of Utah county. I love the easy access to Timpanogos and would like to live 45 mins closer to Strawberry. Unfortunately if I made that move my daughter may be unable to find good friends.

Not that you want to know what I think but here it is anyway. I think you should tell them exactly how they made you feel. I don't know that it would change anything or that one person can change that culture in a significant way but I think you owe it to yourself.

 

[addictionary]

I'm watching Banshee nowadays and figured that the Amish believed in passive reaction: Turn the other cheek. Don't retaliate. Don't violate.

Do Mormons have a similar faith towards avoiding violence no matter what happens? What are their thoughts about sports like boxing and martial arts?

 

[babe]

I'm watching Banshee nowadays and figured that the Amish believed in passive reaction: Turn the other cheek. Don't retaliate. Don't violate.

Do Mormons have a similar faith towards avoiding violence no matter what happens? What are their thoughts about sports like boxing and martial arts?

Probably, since the time of the Haun's Mill massacre, and Governor Lilburn Bogg's extermination order on the Mormons in Missouri, Mormons have realized they have to defend themselves, their families, their liberty with whatever means available. . . .

Mormons are expected by the Church to honorably serve in the military if drafted, and there is a thread of distinct pride in it if you enlist to serve. One general authority liked to tell how he was converted while flying fighter jets over Korea in the early fifties of the last century. . . .

When I was a missionary in Asia, I got my companions up early to take karate lessons. . . . .good times. . . .

However, there is institutional latitude and tolerance built into the system for anyone who has ideas like you mention. Not actionable cause for membership actions or even Bishop comments. Nothing about it in the Handbook.

 

[bigb]

I'm watching Banshee nowadays and figured that the Amish believed in passive reaction: Turn the other cheek. Don't retaliate. Don't violate.

Do Mormons have a similar faith towards avoiding violence no matter what happens? What are their thoughts about sports like boxing and martial arts?

I was taught by my dad (2 time Bishop) not to start a fight, but to finish it. By whatever means necessary. I own a handgun that I keep locked up under my bed. I don't want to use it, but I will to protect my family. I have a seven year old son that has taken karate/kung fu for three years. I know of at least one active, temple recommend holding professional MMA fighter.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

I've asked this before but how do Mormons look at the show Big Love? Is it an accurate depiction in any way, shape or form of a sect of their religion? Not sure if I really worded that right but you get the gist.

 

[bigb]

I've asked this before but how do Mormons look at the show Big Love? Is it an accurate depiction in any way, shape or form of a sect of their religion? Not sure if I really worded that right but you get the gist.

I've never seen the show, but polygamy is not accepted by the Church. Those practicing will be excommunicated.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

I've never seen the show, but polygamy is not accepted by the Church. Those practicing will be excommunicated.

Why does the Mormon/polygamy rumor come into play then?

 

[bigb]

Why does the Mormon/polygamy rumor come into play then?

Mormons used to practice polygamy. It was stopped back in the late 1800's/early 1900's. And at least one spinoff of the Church still does it. But they are officially not a part of the "Mormon" Church.