This is sure to piss off some Jazzfanz
- Thread starter sirkickyass
- Start date
While crosses do have religious meaning to many I think in this case you could argue that forcing their removal is not just about a religious symbol being used by a government institution. Crosses have become an international symbol of respect for loved ones that have died regardless of religion. If the fallen officer's family has an issue with a cross, great, don't place anything in the spot. For a group out of Texas, that has absolutely nothing to do with the situation, to sue Utah forcing the UHP to change it's traditions just smacks of bullying.
Boondocksaint27
Active Member
This.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
And you have PROOF of this, right?
Boondocksaint27
Active Member
While I do think it makes more sense to allow for any type of memorial (i.e. Star of David, etc...) I would argue that the cross transcends religion, at least here in the United States, and is acceoted as a traditional symbol of sacrifice. It is widely accepted in the Military, starting with the early "battlefield cross".
https://www.airforcetimes.com/offduty/health/military_memorials_070827w/
Interesting that the dominant religion in Utah does not use the cross as a religious symbol, yet using a cross as a memorial for fallen police officers has never bothered me. I don't know if a cross is SOLELY considered a religious symbol or not. All I know is that when I see a cross on the side of the road, I know that someone has died and is being remembered. A plaque of another shape would not bring that same knowledge from a distance and would not inspire the same feelings of remembrance and reverence.
I don't really understand how a small group of people can feel good about destroying memorials to fallen officers, but I suppose their agenda is much more important than the feelings of the families/friends of the officers. If they are worried about public funds being "wasted" on such things, perhaps their time and money could be better spent on protesting real government wasteful practices.
I don't have a problem with atheists as I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. For the most part, I don't have too much trouble with many of the decisions that are made about separating religion from politics. This one, however, steps over the line for me.
I don't really understand how a small group of people can feel good about destroying memorials to fallen officers, but I suppose their agenda is much more important than the feelings of the families/friends of the officers. If they are worried about public funds being "wasted" on such things, perhaps their time and money could be better spent on protesting real government wasteful practices.
I don't have a problem with atheists as I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. For the most part, I don't have too much trouble with many of the decisions that are made about separating religion from politics. This one, however, steps over the line for me.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
What does what happen in the United States have to do with the claim that the cross is an INTERNATIONAL symbol as claimed? Or is he claiming just the Christian world, which is what I'm guessing.
Hopper
Banned
"The cross is one of the most ancient human symbols, and is used by many religions, such as Christianity. There are many cross-shaped incisions in European cult caves, dating back to the earliest stages of human cultural development in the stone age. Like other symbols from this period, their use continued in the Celtic and Germanic cultures in Europe. For example, celtic coins minted many centuries before the Christian era may have an entire side showing this type of cross."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross
They presented this argument to the court, and the court detailed in its opinion why it was not considered valid.
I think a tombstone shape (rectangle with a half-circle on top) would be just as effective and evocative.
What's the very first thing you think when you see a cross planted in the ground? That's right, "I wonder who died there?" As far as it being an international symbol, fine, maybe not in certain parts of Africa, the Middle East or deep in the Brazilian rain forest but I'd be willing to bet that a large majority of Western civilization, if not a large majority of entire world recognizes the cross as a symbol of a fallen loved one. No I don't have studies. No I don't have scientific proof. Just a little common sense and travel abroad. But you go ahead and argue otherwise. I'm sure you think you're right regardless.
Calling judge Walker, judge Walker?
It's great you could fit two stupid ideas into such a short sentence. That saves electrons compared to your usual ratio.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
You really think a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Shintoist, or Hedonist among hundreds of other religions that exist in the world would immediately say "Who's buried there?"
I'm sure you also have the inside knowledge of what everyone thinks when they see this image, too.
Hopper
Banned
Of course not! But, then again, what else would ya expect from backwards kinda peoples like them? I betcha aint none of them never been more than a couple miles from the spot they was born on, ya know? What in the hell could they possibly know about a cross they seen in, say, Russia? To begin with, that would assume any of them ever got to Russia, which they aint, so....
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
And to think that a cross wouldn't elicit some sort of religious meaning is ridiculous. Plus the whole unnatural thing buried in the ground would kind of tell me something is buried there. Doesn't have to be a cross.
Hell, if I saw the Islamic crescent moon stuck into the ground, like this, but in the ground, I'd think, "Who's buried there?" Doesn't change the fact that it's still a religious symbol.
And yet you did it in one... congrats!
This doens't change the fact that when any educated person sees a cross planted in the ground they realize what it stands for. A person has fallen here and we are honoring them. Your need to be argumentative and obtuse is doing you no favors. Give it up. If you try hard enough maybe you may be twinkled. Nah, just kidding.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Which is completely religious and completely illegal for a government entity to endorse. Trying to pry the cross away from being a religious symbol just doesn't cut it.
Craig K. Manscill
Well-Known Member
Look, I'll admit that it's not a coincidence that the religious people are defending the cross saying it's "not religious". I mean, a fool can see that in that case, we clearly do think it's religious. Let's not cut the mustard here.
But the fact of the matter is that Christian symbols are the best in the world. They are just more appealing in my objective opinion. We'll plant our damn crosses and Jesus pictures wherever we please. We might hurt some feelings, but at least we're letting other people know we're Christian and we like to read bibles.
But the fact of the matter is that Christian symbols are the best in the world. They are just more appealing in my objective opinion. We'll plant our damn crosses and Jesus pictures wherever we please. We might hurt some feelings, but at least we're letting other people know we're Christian and we like to read bibles.