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Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

LoPo said:
but front offices build the teams and coaches coach them. That's why they are held more accountable.
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You're stating this as if it is some sort of critical imperative. It ignores the fact that coaches and front office staff cannot go out on the court and lead a team.

Teams can be built as well as they can, and still fail. Conversely, If your player has enough quality of talent and character, teams can so far better than the circumstances that they are placed in when they are led by amazing team leaders. I would maintain that (even if the mob disagrees) players are ultimately responsible for how they execute the plan. You want to cite circumstances and shove the blame off in that direction, which makes you painfully typical.

Quitters quit everywhere. Time will reveal what Mitchell is and is not.
 
Engorged On Unborn Gore said:
You're stating this as if it is some sort of critical imperative. It ignores the fact that coaches and front office staff cannot go out on the court and lead a team.

Teams can be built as well as they can, and still fail. Conversely, If your player has enough quality of talent and character, teams can so far better than the circumstances that they are placed in when they are led by amazing team leaders. I would maintain that (even if the mob disagrees) players are ultimately responsible for how they execute the plan. You want to cite circumstances and shove the blame off in that direction, which makes you painfully typical.
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Players can only win with what they are given and what they are running. If the roster is poorly constructed and/or the plan is bad, their level of responsibility for failing to execute said plan is not as much. Like I've said many times - MJ, many consider the greatest, was a perennial loser until he got coached by Phil Jackson, played with Scottie Pippen, and played in Tex Winter's Triangle Offense.

Many of us were saying for years that we needed two things:
1. Perimeter defenders. Not one, but many. We literally had one designated perimeter defender on the roster. You could stretch to say we also had Joe, but he's mainly just a jack of all trades type.
2. A small ball option. It's either DL's fault for getting bad options (Ed Davis, Rudy Gay, Paschall, etc.) or it's Quin's fault for not being able to integrate them into his system. My guess is both.

The FO never addressed our major issues, Quin didn't evolve at all, and in the process, our locker room got disrupted and Joe Ingles got hurt. It was a recipe for disaster.
 
TheStormofWar said:
Andy offers his thoughts on potential trade packages from Utah's various suitors.

View: https://twitter.com/andyblarsen/status/1552332835691712514?s=20&t=TPTf-4-u3szyJEwY-qzweQ
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This was a good article with a lot of information in one place. I think the minimum asking price for Donovan is 3 unprotected firsts, plus extra stuff. I originally thought that there would be plenty of teams that could meet that asking price, but it looks like it isn't so easy. The protected firsts really hurt a team's ability to add unprotected picks.

I can see why New York feels like they have a little leverage now, as there really aren't that many teams that can get anywhere close to what they have to offer.
 
LoPo said:
Players can only win with what they are given and what they are running.
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Players are human beings. Your absolutes are simply ideals that you're projecting on to those human beings. In addition to what you are identifying, they can also allow poor relationships with other players (including players that make them look better than what they are) to fester, and they can abandon what is being run. They can also make themselves look good instead by patting their own stats, which happens in this league every single year.

the roster is poorly constructed and/or the plan is bad, their level of responsibility for failing to execute said plan is not as much.
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While this may be true, it is not the only thing on display. Player commitment and attitude is also on display. Player character is always on display.

Like I've said many times - MJ
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(snip)

You need to improve your comps for this to authentically make sense. You should try and find a player/situation where the player is as committed to defense as Mitchell is.

With the numbers that we have at our disposal, Monte Ellis is a far more appropriate comp. If you have a better one, name him.

Many of us were saying for years
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It seems very important to you to have your opinion aligned with a larger group. Going forward, I will try to adjust my expectations of your posts.

The FO never addressed our major issues
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I don't think you have any special access to what they attempted to do. Some front offices fair better than others, and still lose. But no matter what successes or failures a front office has, there is very little that can change the fact of a Golden State team. Or a LeBron James lead contender.

Quin didn't evolve at all
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I don't agree with that at all. Perhaps he didn't evolve in the way that you and others wanted him to, for which no one should give a f***. But anyone could see his mounting frustrations at having to coach a team that was led to abandon his schemes by the team's "leader".

It is strange to me that front offices and a coaches are so routinely blamed for failures when it is the players (especially in this league) that usually initiate the inertia to jump ship.

Mitchell is no different from KD on that front. He's just smarter about managing his image.
 
Engorged On Unborn Gore said:
You need to improve your comps for this to authentically make sense. You should try and find a player/situation where the player is as committed to defense as Mitchell is.

With the numbers that we have at our disposal, Monte Ellis is a far more appropriate comp. If you have a better one, name him.



It seems very important to you to have your opinion aligned with a larger group. Going forward, I will try to adjust my expectations of your posts.



I don't think you have any special access to what they attempted to do. Some front offices fair better than others, and still lose. But no matter what successes or failures a front office has, there is very little that can change the fact of a Golden State team. Or a LeBron James lead contender.



I don't agree with that at all. Perhaps he didn't evolve in the way that you and others wanted him to, for which no one should give a f***. But anyone could see his mounting frustrations at having to coach a team that was led to abandon his schemes by the team's "leader".

It is strange to me that front offices and a coaches are so routinely blamed for failures when it is the players (especially in this league) that usually initiate the inertia to jump ship.

Mitchell is no different from KD on that front. He's just smarter about managing his image.
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Player comp - Steph Curry not Monta Ellis. Donovan Mitchell has had a better first 5 years than Steph Curry. GS drafted well, traded well, and built well around him.

I don't need my opinion aligned with a larger group. Have you even followed my exact same narrative most people have bashed on for the last two years?

Some front offices actually make changes to improve while others sit on their hands. The Jazz FOs through the years many times have sat on our hands when we are on the cusp of greatness. Our weakness at perimeter defense was blatantly obvious do you agree?

Most of the time that players initiate the inertia to jump ship, it's because they want to leave poor front offices or coaches they don't see eye to eye with. LeBron left terrible Danny Ferry. Kawhi left Pop. Most times, the players find what they are looking for when they want to leave.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
This was a good article with a lot of information in one place. I think the minimum asking price for Donovan is 3 unprotected firsts, plus extra stuff. I originally thought that there would be plenty of teams that could meet that asking price, but it looks like it isn't so easy. The protected firsts really hurt a team's ability to add unprotected picks.

I can see why New York feels like they have a little leverage now, as there really aren't that many teams that can get anywhere close to what they have to offer.
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The idea that they have so much more to offer is a mirage. Any time with their picks in tact and wanting to roll dice can offer a package that is competitive. I don't really care about their other teams' 1sts and I don't find their young talent particularly enticing.

The team that offers the most/best premium draft capital wins, and the thing that makes the Knicks most competitive there is that they remain a joke of a franchise owned by a doofus (which bodes well for us since it makes them more likely to cave).

Update: just read the article and my fears appear to be confirmed - trading protected picks makes it very hard to trade more picks. So IDK. My floor price is three unprotected 1st + other stuff and I think teams can meet that. I also think swaps should be more attractive to the Jazz than protected picks (the game is all about increasing your odds at the top of the draft IMO), and they should be more attractive to the other team as well (as they can sidestep Stepien that way and retain an asset). In these cases, I'm writing in language into the swap along the lines of "[other team] sends their highest 1st round draft pick in [year] and receives the lowest draft picks set to convey to the Jazz." It seems possible to me, which would mean they could boost the value of the protected picks to come (for Bojan, Clarkson, etc) and still position themselves to get lucky if their trading partner is unlucky.
 
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Keefe said:
This is against board policy.

@Jason
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What was it? It got removed and now I want to see it!!

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