Transgender and sports

[Gameface]

I'd like for someone to help me understand the purpose of school sports?

Why do we have sports in our public schools?

 

[The Thriller]

So does this mean that fighting for inclusion in women's sports is kind of pointless?
Do trans females even want to play women's sports?

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Very good questions that I don’t know the answers to. But I do know that these bans on trans athletes are just the latest attack on the LGBT community and not “protecting women’s sports.” Just look at the difference in facilities and food between men’s and women’s NCAA basketball.

 

[fishonjazz]

There is a common theme amongst issues that crop up regarding transgender people.

With the bathroom bills that were going around a few years ago the underlying concept was that people would use a transgender identity as cover so that they could enter women's rest rooms and somehow, once inside under the cover of their feminine identity, take advantage of young girls.

With the sports issue we see that theme being repainted in an attempt to make it seem more reasonable. But regardless, the concept seems to be that someone will use their feminine identity to insert their self into female competitive sports and scoop up all the trophies.

This can be traced back to the earliest reaction I can remember regarding transgender people. The bold statement is typically something along the lines of "There are only two genders." I think some people fail to realize that simple transgenderism doesn't challenge that concept. It is a concept worth challenging, but that's a subject that really has nothing to do with transgender people. The way I read that sort of statement, and tying it back into the bathroom issue and the sports issue is like this: People think that transgender identity is an attempt by a dishonest person to trick them into believing something that if they fall for it will make them look foolish. These people are just too smart to fall for it!

So at their core, these anti-transgender concepts are based on the idea that transgender people are lying about their gender. It is also almost always taking a transgender person's identity and the challenges surrounding that away from them and making it about someone else. The poor helpless girls who stand to be abused in the bathroom, or the hard working girls who will have all of their victories taken away from them by the athlete "pretending" to be female so that they can win all the competitions.

I don't think that transgender women would be disingenuous and just make the switch to scoop up so the trophies.
I simply had a concern that they would identify as women and make the change, which I have no problem with, and then dominate women's sports and make it harder for cis females to compete and participate in women's sports.

Thanks to many posts in this thread I have learned a lot and don't see that it would currently be a problem if inclusion was allowed so Im supportive of inclusion right now. If 20 years from now the majority of women's sports were dominated by transgender women then I think that would suck for cis women and maybe the situation would need to be re-evaluated?
I would say that's my new and current stance on the issue.

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[Gameface]

I don't think that transgender women would be disingenuous and just make the switch to scoop up so the trophies.
I simply had a concern that they would identify as women and make the change, which I have no problem with, and then dominate women's sports and make it harder for cis females to compete and participate in women's sports.

Thanks to many posts in this thread I have learned a lot and don't see that it would currently be a problem if inclusion was allowed so Im supportive of inclusion right now. If 20 years from now the majority of women's sports were dominated by transgender women then I think that would suck for cis women and maybe the situation would need to be re-evaluated?
I would say that's my new and current stance on the issue.

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Well this can be addressed by the potential answers to my question as to what the purpose is in having sports in our schools?

Is the answer so that some students can experience what it's like to beat someone else in a competition? If that's the answer than I can understand why this controversy exists. I never thought that was the point of having kids participate in sports, though.

I believed that sports existed to teach things like hard word, discipline, teamwork and sportsmanship. If that is true then it doesn't really matter if the trans female wins, does it?

 

[fishonjazz]

Very good questions that I don’t know the answers to. But I do know that these bans on trans athletes are just the latest attack on the LGBT community and not “protecting women’s sports.”

I can only speak for myself but I was against inclusion only to protect women's sports because I was worried about trans women pushing cis women out of sports.
Those concerns have been eleviated by posters like yourself in this thread

I think often times the issue that those on "the right" have with those on "the left" is that if someone is ignorant about these types of things and is trying to learn more about the issue in order to be more inclusive and are asking questions then those on "the left" just go straight to attacks, assumptions and insults due to the questions being asked. That can shutdown conversations which is a ban thing. People who are more liberal and progressive should try to keep an open mind and use patience with those who are more conservative but are trying to learn through difficult questions.

I think that would help. I understand that it's hard though.

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[fishonjazz]

Well this can be addressed by the potential answers to my question as to what the purpose is in having sports in our schools?

Is the answer so that some students can experience what it's like to beat someone else in a competition? If that's the answer than I can understand why this controversy exists. I never thought that was the point of having kids participate in sports, though.

I believed that sports existed to teach things like hard word, discipline, teamwork and sportsmanship. If that is true then it doesn't really matter if the trans female wins, does it?

Well I mean if the concerns that some people have were legit (which I'm learning they probably aren't) then hard work, discipline, teamwork, and sportsmanship would be decreased with inclusion is transgender women. I think people's concerns are that if LeBron and usain bolt were competing against women then they would be so dominant that there would be no need for them to work hard or have teamwork or discipline or sportsmanship. I mean they would never ever have a chance to be beat in competition. Lebron against men will lose sometimes as we have seen. Lebron against women would never lose.

I'm seeing that the chances of a trans lebron is almost non existent but I believe those kinds of fears are what drive SOME people to want to exclude trans females from females sports. (Some people are probably just hateful dickheads and hate transpeople too and nothing can be done for them)

That's why productive discussions and education and open minds and patience should be practiced when talking to conservative people.

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[Gameface]

Well I mean if the concerns that some people have were legit (which I'm learning they probably aren't) then hard work, discipline, teamwork, and sportsmanship would be decreased with inclusion is transgender women. I think people's concerns are that if LeBron and usain bolt were competing against women then they would be so dominant that there would be no need for them to work hard or have teamwork or discipline or sportsmanship. I mean they would never ever have a chance to be beat in competition. Lebron against men will lose sometimes as we have seen. Lebron against women would never lose.

I'm seeing that the chances of a trans lebron is almost non existent but I believe those kinds of fears are what drive SOME people to want to exclude trans females from females sports. (Some people are probably just hateful dickheads and hate transpeople too and nothing can be done for them)

That's why productive discussions and education and open minds and patience should be practiced when talking to conservative people.

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Hopefully you haven't felt like I'm attacking you on this. That's absolutely not my intention. Not towards you especially but also not towards anyone else. I think it is fair for people to be uncertain and have questions and concerns. I also understand that people will come to different conclusions, even with significant info, than mine.

 

[Eminence]

If there weren't women only leagues there basically wouldn't be any place for women in sports outside of rec leagues and the like because the number of men with superior physical abilities would easily crowd them out, being as there's roughly even numbers of both sexes present here on planet earth.

Trans folk make up a tiny percentage of the total population. Even if we were to grant that they have an overwhelming physical advantage (which is dubious) they simply don't have the numbers to push cis women out of sports the way that men do.

At what point would you say cis women had been pushed out of their sport?

Trans women being overrepresented (respective to their % of the population of women) in olympic/professional level competition? Something past that? Something lesser than that?

 

[Beer]

“bUt TrAnS aRe GoNnA rUiN wOmEn’S sPoRtS!”





Why wasn’t a thread created to discuss the inequalities between the facilities, food, swag bags, and covid tests of the NCAA men’s teams vs Women’s? Cuz you know this is about protecting women’s sports and something something MAGA!

Go ahead and make a threat about it.

 

[Beer]

Well this can be addressed by the potential answers to my question as to what the purpose is in having sports in our schools?

Is the answer so that some students can experience what it's like to beat someone else in a competition? If that's the answer than I can understand why this controversy exists. I never thought that was the point of having kids participate in sports, though.

I believed that sports existed to teach things like hard word, discipline, teamwork and sportsmanship. If that is true then it doesn't really matter if the trans female wins, does it?

The point of sports is to see who the best at something is. Hard work, discipline, teamwork etc will help you become the best at something. It has to feel pretty crappy for some of those Connecticut girls to put in all that hard work to get as good as they could at sprinting and then have it be for nothing because they got beat by a biological male.

 

[Beer]

Ya I think most people consider me a "liberal" and a "lefty" or whatever label you want to use but I actually think that trans females shouldn't compete with females born females.
I got into an argument on facebook with a trans friend of mine. It didn't get too ugly as I eventually compromised my point of view to appease her since I could tell she was getting upset.

I have a daughter who is 4 years old. Now currently if you have a high school agreed daughter that was born female that is into sports and wants to play basketball or softball or soccer or whatever she will be competing almost entirely against other students that were also born female.

But I have some concern that by the time my daughter is in high school she might have to compete against students who were born male and are naturally bigger, stronger and faster that her which I think makes it much harder for.

The person I was arguing with on Facebook was upset with me because I told her that men are bigger, stronger and faster than women and disagreed and got mad and was like "oh, so you think you could beat Serena williams at tennis". And I was like **** no. I would get destroyed.
But roger federer could beat her easily.

I mean it's pretty obvious that men are simply naturally faster, bigger, and stronger than women. It's documented. Look up who has the fasted 100 yard dash times recorded. It's going to be a man. Hell, probably the top 1,000 hundred yard dash times are probably all by men. Maybe more than that.
Same thing for weightlifting records, discus, long jump, high jump, etc etc.

Imagine lebron playing in the wnba. It would be stupid. He literally would never lose and could average 200 points per game.

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The problem isn't the Lebrons transitioning, its the dorks like Cy that are physically inferior in the mens sports that get into womens sports and beat all the girls. Not that he could, but maybe someone a little more athletic than Cy. And no I don't think men will transition just to win a few girl track meets, and no I don't think they are faking their transgenderism, and yes I understand that 99% of trans probably don't give a f about sports, so yes I agree in the grand scheme of things who cares. But I also think it is. very unfair to whatever girls get screwed when this occasionally does happen.

 

[Gameface]

The point of sports is to see who the best at something is. Hard work, discipline, teamwork etc will help you become the best at something. It has to feel pretty crappy for some of those Connecticut girls to put in all that hard work to get as good as they could at sprinting and then have it be for nothing because they got beat by a biological male.

So the point of taxpayers paying for school sports is so that we can find out who the best kids are at that sport. Got it.

 

[Gameface]

The problem isn't the Lebrons transitioning, its the dorks like Cy that are physically inferior in the mens sports that get into womens sports and beat all the girls. Not that he could, but maybe someone a little more athletic than Cy. And no I don't think men will transition just to win a few girl track meets, and no I don't think they are faking their transgenderism, and yes I understand that 99% of trans probably don't give a f about sports, so yes I agree in the grand scheme of things who cares. But I also think it is. very unfair to whatever girls get screwed when this occasionally does happen.

Exactly the point I made. It's the boys who can't beat other boys so they join the girls team. They aren't really transgender. They aren't on hormones. They just want to win so bad that they will pretend to identify as a female so that they can win at high school sports. I get that you are saying this is only maybe 1% of transgender people, but it isn't. It' isn't 1/10000th of a percent of transgender people who make up 0.05% of the population to begin with.

We don't need legislation to address this.

 

[Gameface]

Sucks for all the girls at 1A schools who have a star female athlete from a 4A school transfer to their school and kicks all their asses hard every single time. But, we're trying to figure out who the best is, so losers are gonna lose and winners are gonna win. Suck it losers, taxpayers are gonna get their monies worth figuring out who the best of the best is.

 

[Beer]

So the point of taxpayers paying for school sports is so that we can find out who the best kids are at that sport. Got it.

Not for you or I to find out but for the ones actually competing to be the best. And like you said to try and become the best they learn all these life lessons about hard work and such. But I agree it's such a small thing that legislature is over kill. I stand by the fact it is fundamentally unfair to the other competitors when and if it does happen though.

 

[Beer]

Sucks for all the girls at 1A schools who have a star female athlete from a 4A school transfer to their school and kicks all their asses hard every single time. But, we're trying to figure out who the best is, so losers are gonna lose and winners are gonna win. Suck it losers, taxpayers are gonna get their monies worth figuring out who the best of the best is.

Well the 4a girl that kicks their asses would be the best. What's your point?

 

[Gameface]

Well the 4a girl that kicks their asses would be the best. What's your point?

The occasional transgender female is the best... is my point

 

[Beer]

The occasional transgender female is the best... is my point

But she is biologically a male competing against biological females. Which is not a fair competition. That is my point.

 

[Gameface]

So look. I kind of assumed that the people participating in this thread were aware of this, but maybe that isn't the case.

I have a transgender daughter. She's 19 years old, she has been openly transgender for a little more than 5 years now. I'm not going to discuss private medical details at all because those aren't mine to talk about on a public forum. But needless to say that first my daughter has less than 0% interest in participating in sports. Second, if she did, she would not be dominant against an average female athlete her same age. Third, this **** ain't easy. Shutting more doors, making more explicit statements about exclusion and making clear that she is not allowed to win, that we might tolerate her but we will never accept or embrace her, well she doesn't need a society that regards her that way. And that society will be the less for it.

 

[Gameface]

But she is biologically a male competing against biological females. Which is not a fair competition. That is my point.

Competition is NOT fair. Some people are better than others. You were 100% cool with the 4A girl moving into the 1A school and dominating. To you that's perfectly fair. But a transgender female isn't allowed to win. No matter what we can't let her win.