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We seriously need to revisit Burks at the backup PG

You have said nothing substantive for me to agree with.

I said Neto makes the least amount of mistakes.

You responded "You can't be serious" then just proceeded to tell me Neto sucks and you know he sucks because you are also a small person who also plays basketball, like playing basketball is some kind of unique trait in a forum of basketball fans. You havent offered any kind of view point or perspective to agree with. I've already acknlowedged in the argument that our backup PG play was poor all around. That is the entire basis of this discussion: All of our backup PGs are so poor we should play the person who makes the least amount of mistakes. To which you seem to be baffled by and not able to get over the fact that sometimes Neto gets scored on because he is smaller than other guys sometimes.
 
I'm all for Neto getting the 10-15 minutes behind Hill, as has been said, and witnessed by watching the games, he makes less errors. He is fast on offense and defense...but is unforinately a little short. I think he does a much better job at staying in front of other quick guards than Mack and Exum without fouling like crazy.

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The backup PG is tough right now because they're getting 10-15, but over 4 different shifts of 3-5 minutes. It's hard to play 3 minutes at a time and consistently make an impact. Neto brings the most energy and is theoretically the most reliable shooter so I'm fine with him playing. I don't think there is much separation between the three, so I'd just play Exum if it were my choice, but none of these guys have stepped up so there isn't really a right or wrong answer.

Once Hood comes back, I think it should be Alec. It isn't so much Alec playing PG as it is no one playing PG. He's a stronger player than Exum/Mack/Neto. Quin has a lot of decisions at hand. I'm interested to see who he decides who he wants between Hill, Hood, or Hayward to run the 6/6/6 rotation and carry a bench unit.

I also think he needs to push Joe Johnson to the 4 more often. It will squeeze Lyles and Diaw out of minutes, but come playoff time I think he'll need to decide on just one of them anyways. After playing around in my lineup chart for a few minutes, I think the best way to do it is to split the PF minutes 4 ways between Favors, Diaw, Lyles, and "small" to finish the season. Once the playoffs role around you cut down to 8 main guys and maybe one more getting spot minutes.
 
AB is too good of a player to not be on the court more. If backup PG is where he can get more minutes, do it.
 
Position names are stupid. Burks should just take minutes from the worst guards/wings in the rotation.
 
Crocodile Dante said:
My 2 cents

Mack - I am confused how all of a sudden Mack is getting DNP's when he was getting a lot of burn earlier. I understand injuries but Neto was getting nothing and now he is.

Mack is a turn over machine. He doesn't make the right pass often but he is a decent scoring guard. His floater is unstoppable but he doesn't elicit a lot of confidence when he shoots.

Defensively he is OK.

Neto - I have been a fan of and is just a solid player. Doesn't make a ton of mistakes but he is an over dribbler. I am surprised his 3 isn't falling better.

Defensively he is better then Mack but to get more playing time he needs to develop the annoying defense of a Barera or dellavedova.

Exum - I think will see spit minutes the rest of the season. I think the tendonitis is a deal that the jazz are concerned with. I agree he needs time on the court to get better but I would like to see Hill spending some time with him explaining and pointing out game nuances.

Defensively he has been up and down. I have always said it is about desire and he was getting after it at first then his knee bothered him then he came back tentative.

Exum needs to be all about confidence.

On a side note he makes enough money he should go to a dermatologist to get his acne taken care of, it is hard to taking serious when he looks 16.

Burks - is a conundrum for me. He has a ton of talent but he just doesn't seem to understand what the team is doing. I think he could do as well as the afore mentioned players playing back up to Hill. Just let Ingles or JJ initiate the offense and let Burks cut and attack the basket.

I think Burks could do what JJ does in ISO situtions.

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Defensively Mack is far from okay. He's hot trash on defense.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
No, the stats reflect it too. [Neto] shoots the least and turns it over the least.
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Not true.

On a per/36 basis, Exum shoots less and turns the ball over less, and Mack gets more assists:

Player / FGA / AST / TO

Hill / 14.8 / 4.8 / 1.8
Mack / 11.5 / 4.6 / 3.1
Neto / 10.3 / 3.7 / 2.0
Exum / 10.1 / 3.1 / 1.8

If you want a stat he's "good" at, then try DRtg, or maybe ORtg/DRtg differential:

Player / ORtg / DRtg / Diff

Hill / 124 / 106 / +16
Neto / 99 / 103 / -4
Exum / 99 / 108 / -9
Mack / 96 / 107 / -11

I've included Hill's stats for comparison, and add the caveat that Neto's sample size is small (<200 mins).

EDIT: I posted this before reading the rest of the thread. These numbers also confirm the large gap between Hill and the backups, and that none of the three candidates are good. They also suggest why Mack is now out of favor, his ORtg is the worst and differential is the second-worst in the team (Diaw is 97/109/-12).

Also, Exum and Neto have very similar /36 numbers, with the main difference being that Neto gets way more steals.
 
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Neto's advanced stats are no guide to how much of impact he is having given he it is such a small sample size and has all come in the last 10 games where we have been pretty much at full health. Compared to that of Exum and Mack who didn't have the advantage of playing with a fit Favors/Burks and played in more losses.
 
Mantis said:
Not true.

On a per/36 basis, Exum shoots less and turns the ball over less, and Mack gets more assists:

Player / FGA / AST / TO

Hill / 14.8 / 4.8 / 1.8
Mack / 11.5 / 4.6 / 3.1
Neto / 10.3 / 3.7 / 2.0
Exum / 10.1 / 3.1 / 1.8

If you want a stat he's "good" at, then try DRtg, or maybe ORtg/DRtg differential:

Player / ORtg / DRtg / Diff

Hill / 124 / 106 / +16
Neto / 99 / 103 / -4
Exum / 99 / 108 / -9
Mack / 96 / 107 / -11

I've included Hill's stats for comparison, and add the caveat that Neto's sample size is small (<200 mins).

EDIT: I posted this before reading the rest of the thread. These numbers also confirm the large gap between Hill and the backups, and that none of the three candidates are good. They also suggest why Mack is now out of favor, his ORtg is the worst and differential is the second-worst in the team (Diaw is 97/109/-12).

Also, Exum and Neto have very similar /36 numbers, with the main difference being that Neto gets way more steals.
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I care less about their individual stats and more there on/off ratings. We arent looking for our backup PG's to do anything other than not hurt the team by trying to do too much.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I care less about their individual stats and more there on/off ratings. We arent looking for our backup PG's to do anything other than not hurt the team by trying to do too much.
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That sounds like an angle a team with the best starting lineup(not the Jazz) should play.
 
shelvin mack is at best worth like 4 mil a season.. same for neto.. vouching for these players over Burks is a vote for mediocrity..


having the backup PG just be a placeholder that tries not to screw up is a concession (LUXURY) Utah can't afford vs top-competition, especially not when they have other options sitting right there on the roster...
 
PG_AB said:
shelvin mack is at best worth like 4 mil a season.. same for neto.. vouching for these players over Burks is a vote for mediocrity..


having the backup PG just be a placeholder that tries not to screw up is a concession (LUXURY) Utah can't afford vs top-competition, especially not when they have other options sitting right there on the roster...
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Definitely. The truth is that anyone would rather watch Alec Burks grab rebounds and run up the floor over Mack, Neto, or Exum.

Also to consider is that he hasn't played in a long time and injuries are a common theme around here. The Jazz expect playoffs so they need to know what playing Burks can do by then; there's still enough time and they'd prefer he is healthy. The Jazz also need to keep winning games while his teammates figure out how to play best with him - especially since he can make plays.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/netora01/on-off/2017 <---- Neto's On/Off stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/exumda01/on-off/2017 <---- Exum's On/Off stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/macksh01/on-off/2017 <---- Mack's On/Off stats

Let me be clear, I think all 3 players "suck", but I'm completely convinced Neto knows how to get out of his own way and let the team succeed. Mack makes a ton of bonehead decisions on the basketball court and can't stay infront of anyone and Exum just doesnt know how to play basketball and can't hit an open 3.

You seem to be hung up on the fact that opposing team's really try to bully Neto and score on him. That is a thing and I get why you focus on it so much. I did too at first. It would bother me that Neto seemed to get score on right away when he checked in and get "exposed". The reality though is the team fares much better defensively with Neto. He pressures the ball better and actually keeps opposing ball-handlers in front of him.
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Great post cy. Honestly all of your posts have been fantastic in this discussion and you were even fare and not rude.

Killed it.

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kiri.de.carlos said:
I'm all for Neto getting the 10-15 minutes behind Hill, as has been said, and witnessed by watching the games, he makes less errors. He is fast on offense and defense. He is gorgeous ...but is unforinately a little short. I think he does a much better job at staying in front of other quick guards than Mack and Exum without fouling like crazy.

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Fixed for you.
 
KqWIN said:
The backup PG is tough right now because they're getting 10-15, but over 4 different shifts of 3-5 minutes. It's hard to play 3 minutes at a time and consistently make an impact. Neto brings the most energy and is theoretically the most reliable shooter so I'm fine with him playing. I don't think there is much separation between the three, so I'd just play Exum if it were my choice, but none of these guys have stepped up so there isn't really a right or wrong answer.

Once Hood comes back, I think it should be Alec. It isn't so much Alec playing PG as it is no one playing PG. He's a stronger player than Exum/Mack/Neto. Quin has a lot of decisions at hand. I'm interested to see who he decides who he wants between Hill, Hood, or Hayward to run the 6/6/6 rotation and carry a bench unit.

I also think he needs to push Joe Johnson to the 4 more often. It will squeeze Lyles and Diaw out of minutes, but come playoff time I think he'll need to decide on just one of them anyways. After playing around in my lineup chart for a few minutes, I think the best way to do it is to split the PF minutes 4 ways between Favors, Diaw, Lyles, and "small" to finish the season. Once the playoffs role around you cut down to 8 main guys and maybe one more getting spot minutes.
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Great post. I agree about playing jj at the 4 more instead of lyles/diaw.
I really like lyles and think he is a keeper but I really want to see how far this team can go this year. To me that means playing your best guys and throwing out development of youth to some extent. Burks takes all of the backup pg minutes and jj takes most of the backup 4 minutes. And even if that were to happen I still think you can keep everybody fresh. Hill, burks, hood, hayward, ingles, jj, favors, and rudy should get the Lions share of minutes and everyone else get spot minutes here and there imo.
 
Tom349 said:
Neto's advanced stats are no guide to how much of impact he is having given he it is such a small sample size and has all come in the last 10 games where we have been pretty much at full health. Compared to that of Exum and Mack who didn't have the advantage of playing with a fit Favors/Burks and played in more losses.
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This is a solid counter point.
 
NAOS said:
Q is already headed in this direction, IMO. But, he's getting some good action out of his pawns right, so I expect him to keep using them while he can. Triple-wing is gonna happen, though. Plenty.
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Mack, Exum, and Neto combine for 0 minutes tonight.
 
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