What's wrong with "Stacking a Deck?"

[carolinajazz]

....I see Michael Jordan is quoted as saying he would never have done what Lebron did....as if he didn't stack a deck when he was playing for the Bull's! Sometimes owners try to stack a deck, sometimes GM's try to stack a deck.....and then in this case, players take it upon themselves to stack a deck! Generally speaking, it's a rare occasion when ANY basketball players go down to the courts without FIRST stacking a deck! I wasn't going down to the courts to just run around like a chicken with my head cut off! If I went down to the courts to play basketball....I first called up a couple of my basketball buddies....guys that could play and played the way or in the "system" I liked to play....and then we went down, with the goal of dominating! So how about it? Do you guys play just for exercise....or do you "STACK A DECK" before you go down to play?

 

[Beantown]

I would rather see the best players in the league compete agasint eachother, not be teammates. I think that's Jordans point.

 

[carolinajazz]

I would rather see the best players in the league compete agasint eachother, not be teammates. I think that's Jordans point.

...I don't think that was Jordan's point at all! He sure didn't complain when the Bull's got Pippen...and HE was the one that did most of the recruiting to land Rodman! If Jordan was in the same shoes at Lebron, with no more cap space room....and NOBODY wanting to sign to play in Cleveland...he would have bolted like a grasshopper out of a barnyard fire!

 

[NotDeadYet]

Jordan was a competitor FIRST and foremost. Of course he wanted championships, but he wanted to go up against the BEST to attain those championships. The Miami Heat will likely get a championship or two, but won't reap the same rewards as Jordan did when he won his. Or Bill Russell did when his Celtics bested the great Wilt Chamberlain. There are many others. Pat Riley does know how to use the rules to his advantage...

 

[Beantown]

Pippen and rodman is not bosh and Wade

 

[G-O-A-T]

Competitors, guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, Stockton..., they always talked about how they wanted to beat a team at its best. They wanted the other team at full strength because they wanted to prove that they could beat the best at their best. In other words, it wasn't just winning that drove them, it was winning in the face of a challenge. Therefore, I don't think its a far leap to assume that these guys wouldn't have felt nearly the same satisfaction in their careers had they teamed up together to whoop the rest of the league.

Anyone who takes winning so serious that they choose to remove the challenge might as well just take their buddies and whoop on the kids at the jr high playgrounds.

As far as comparing Wade and Bosh to Pippen and Rodman... this is not even close. First, Pippen was drafted by the Bulls and grew with the team... he wasn't recruited AFTER he already proven his greatness. And as for Rodman, Rodman was (1) a head case, (2) a major distraction, and (3) a specialty player, not a superstar. Rodman could just as easily brought the bulls down, but instead, Jordan's team had enough control over him to extract his positive attributes over his negative.

You think Lebron and Wade would agree to pair with Rodman? I highly doubt it... Rodman would present to much of a risk against damaging their public image.

 

[Stifle Tower]

So you can't have 3 superstars, but you can have 2 and that's okay.

Lakers had Shaq and Kobe. Those were the two best at their positions back in the day.
Jazz had Malone and Stockton. Also, arguably the two greatest at their respective positions.

So if the Magic just had Lebron and Wade, or Wade and Bosh...that would be o.k. in terms of "fairness." But add a third superstar to the mix and suddenly it cheapens what they may do.

Or I guess you can also having 3 "aging" stars and that's ok (Pierce, Garnett and Allen). Just not three in their prime.

 

[sirkickyass]

The statements themselves are a product of Jordan's competitiveness. He's planting the seeds to forever lay claim to the GOAT title regardless of whatever Lebron achieves in Miami.

 

[G-O-A-T]

So you can't have 3 superstars, but you can have 2 and that's okay.

Lakers had Shaq and Kobe. Those were the two best at their positions back in the day.
Jazz had Malone and Stockton. Also, arguably the two greatest at their respective positions.

So if the Magic just had Lebron and Wade, or Wade and Bosh...that would be o.k. in terms of "fairness." But add a third superstar to the mix and suddenly it cheapens what they may do.

Or I guess you can also having 3 "aging" stars and that's ok (Pierce, Garnett and Allen). Just not three in their prime.

None of those joint superstar examples were created by similar circumstances. Bosh, Wade, and James made a prearranged deal amongst themselves that they would join the same team. Each of the examples you pointed out were due to management and draft decisions... ie., the players didn't make it happen.

A "real" competitor wants to win in the face of challenge... for players, that means beating the best players; for GM's that means beating other GM's (solely by winning titles). Here, the players decided to break that order and do the GM's job by themselves.

I don't think getting together necessarily gives them an "unfair" advantage (IMO, last years Cavs > Heat) . I do on the other hand, think it was lame (between "David and Goliath", who actually dreams of being Goliath?) and arguably underhanded (keeping quiet until a national press conference).

 

[carolinajazz]

Competitors, guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, Stockton..., they always talked about how they wanted to beat a team at its best. They wanted the other team at full strength because they wanted to prove that they could beat the best at their best. In other words, it wasn't just winning that drove them, it was winning in the face of a challenge.

.......so your saying if a third HOF would have joined the Jazz either by free agency or trade, it would have cheapened any accomplishments Malone and Stockton would achieve from that point forward? Lebron went to the Heat because the Cav's did not have cap space to improve the team anymore....at least not this upcoming year. Wade and Bosh could not have signed with the Cav's and you can't blame them even if the money would have been similiar. Who in their right mind would leave Miami to live in Cleveland? Or leave Toronto....and then choose Cleveland? Jordan would have done the same thing Lebron did under the same circumstances! The NBA didn't have a hard cap rule back in Jordan's day, did they? If Jordan was on a Bull's team that had no cap space and no chance to win the championship, but could bolt to a team he thought was more talented and in better position to dominate, he would have switched teams in a heart beat!

 

[G-O-A-T]

.......so your saying if a third HOF would have joined the Jazz either by free agency or trade, it would have cheapened any accomplishments Malone and Stockton would achieve from that point forward? Lebron went to the Heat because the Cav's did not have cap space to improve the team anymore....at least not this upcoming year. Wade and Bosh could not have signed with the Cav's and you can't blame them even if the money would have been similiar. Who in their right mind would leave Miami to live in Cleveland? Or leave Toronto....and then choose Cleveland? Jordan would have done the same thing Lebron did under the same circumstances! The NBA didn't have a hard cap rule back in Jordan's day, did they? If Jordan was on a Bull's team that had no cap space and no chance to win the championship, but could bolt to a team he thought was more talented and in better position to dominate, he would have switched teams in a heart beat!

My response to your hypothetical can be mostly answered in the post 2 spots above this one.

If Malone would have won a title in LA, would you give him the same respect for that championship as if he had won it in Utah?

As for what city they went to... who cares? They made a deal to get together so they could dominate the league... regardless of where they went, it's still the same thing.

As for your assumptions that Jordan would have left just like Lebron? Are you kidding me? Lebron just left the best NBA team (record wise) for 2 straight years. Your seriously telling me that you think Jordan would have left the Bulls after having the best record for 2 straight years all because he wanted to cement his opportunity to win with Magic / Bird?

The simple fact is that D-Wade talked his buddies, Bosh / James, into coming to Miami so that Wade could once again be on a championship team. Bosh had nothing going for him on his part, so of course he jumped on the bandwagon. James... well, he either desperately wanted out of Cleveland or he panicked (got scared he could never win on his own) and left. Atleast Wade can use this event to get himself an NBA GM job after he retires...

 

[Beantown]

Its also about how the 3 great players get togethor.

 

[carolinajazz]

If Malone would have won a title in LA, would you give him the same respect for that championship as if he had won it in Utah?

Absolutely! Malone DESERVED to win an NBA title! His career was that great! The fact that he didn't get one with the Jazz and Stockton was tragic....but part of NBA life. He didn't get one with the Lakers. Why? He got hurt and the Lakers didn't have enough sticks to win it all that year! But had they won, no one would have been more deserving on that team than Malone!

As for what city they went to... who cares? They made a deal to get together so they could dominate the league... regardless of where they went, it's still the same thing.

...they went to Miami because they had sufficient cap space, the best city and no state income tax.

As for your assumptions that Jordan would have left just like Lebron? Are you kidding me? Lebron just left the best NBA team (record wise) for 2 straight years. Your seriously telling me that you think Jordan would have left the Bulls after having the best record for 2 straight years all because he wanted to cement his opportunity to win with Magic / Bird?

.....Lebron saw the handwriting on the wall.....so would have Jordan. The Cav's didn't have anymore cap space to improve the team next year.....and perhaps not for a few more years. So he played out his contract and moved on. He didn't force them to renegotiate....he just played out his contract and moved on. Jordan quit after winning 6 rings. Why? He also saw the handwriting on the wall. The Bull's were not in a position to improve the team and guys were getting older. He could have played another year with them. But would he have won? I doubt it.

The simple fact is that D-Wade talked his buddies, Bosh / James, into coming to Miami so that Wade could once again be on a championship team. Bosh had nothing going for him on his part, so of course he jumped on the bandwagon. James... well, he either desperately wanted out of Cleveland or he panicked (got scared he could never win on his own) and left.

....Lebron wanted Wade and Bosh to come to Cleveland. But Wade knew Miami was the better town, city and management and had the cap space to improve the team. You don't honestly think Bosh was going to finally get a chance to leave Toronto....and then move to the pathetic city/area of Cleveland, do you? So they all decided on Miami.

Atleast Wade can use this event to get himself an NBA GM job after he retires...

...you might be more right than you think, on that one!

reply

 

[Hopper]

Do you know anyone who goes to Cleveland for vacation?

Yeah, that's what I thought, eh?

 

[G-O-A-T]

reply

Reply to what? All you did was counter my opinions with your own... I don't have the time, effort, or desire to respond to every sentence you wrote; however, if you want to discuss any particular issue in depth, I'll be happy to chime in with my thoughts.

That said, I appreciate you sharing your opinions... even though they are wrong

 

[carolinajazz]

Reply to what?

...actually, I didn't want you to reply....but the way I responded with the bold type to each of your comments....it said I had to put something in there...so the first word that came to mind was "reply."

 

[carolinajazz]

Do you know anyone who goes to Cleveland for vacation?

Yeah, that's what I thought, eh?

....you got that right! You sure got that right! We use to tell guys who were taking vacations and saying they would be in Cleveland: "Hey wait one minute! You're either going on vacation....OR....you're going to Cleveland. You can't be doing BOTH!"

 

[Hopper]

....the first word that came to mind was "reply."

Just so they aint no confusion, er nuthin, CJ, in the future I would suggest "fool," eh?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

...I don't think that was Jordan's point at all! He sure didn't complain when the Bull's got Pippen...and HE was the one that did most of the recruiting to land Rodman! If Jordan was in the same shoes at Lebron, with no more cap space room....and NOBODY wanting to sign to play in Cleveland...he would have bolted like a grasshopper out of a barnyard fire!

Got Pippen? They essentially drafted him as he was part of a draft-day trade you moran. It was organic.

 

[carolinajazz]

Got Pippen? They essentially drafted him as he was part of a draft-day trade you moran. It was organic.

...I don't recollect exactly how the Bull's got Pippen....all I know is that it wasn't until he developed into a top 50 NBA player, that Jordan got the help he needed to win a championship. Jordan needed help....LOTS of it, to win those championships....including the first one! As a side thought, not that I hate being right all the time, notice this guys take on the same subject! Happens to concur with my comments as well!

https://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38327899/ns/sports-nba/