Where is that pit bull thread when I need it?

[fishonjazz]

This thread makes me sad. There are so many great dogs in shelters that won't get adopted because of the type of thinking in this thread. These dogs could make great pets.

I would guess that the two main complaints from dog owners are excessive barking and excessive shedding. Pits don't excessively bark and they have a short coat that is super easy to maintain. Pitbulls truly love humans to the point where they really are the worst guard dogs if they aren't trained to be because they just love up on anyone that they meet. We had our dog for about 3 months when my brother came and visited from out of town. He made it in at about 1am and we were worried our dog would bark and wake everyone up. He didn't bark, just was super excited the next day to meet him.

I don't believe Pitbulls are more aggressive or more likely to randomly snap than any other dog. There are many studies that have basically shown this. Here is a link to one that I believe is pretty comprehensive: http://www.fairdog.dk/elements/documents/research/canine-behavior.pdf
In other studies Pitbulls have shown to have a temperament similar to a golden retriever or lab. I have seen some research that suggests Pits are slightly more likely to be aggressive towards other dogs, but that certainly isn't the rule. My dog loves other dogs. He's one of the most popular dogs at the dog park. We also see many other pit bulls at our dog park and they are all super friendly and great dogs.

Bite statistics are not super reliable, and almost all of the primary research that looks at them makes that disclaimer. However, I still think it's pretty clear that Pit's cause more severe biting incidents than other dogs. I believe this is due to two things. First, Pits aren't as vocal as other dogs. They don't growl or bark as warnings that they are agitated. If you understand dog body language it's all the same, but if you aren't familiar with dog body language you could be caught off guard. The second is that Pits have large mouths and strong bites. They don't have the strongest bite and they don't lock their jaws, those are both myths, but they are stronger than a lot of other dogs.

Even so, targeting Pit Bulls, has shown to be very ineffective. Breed specific legislation has either shown a very minor reduction in dog bites or no effect. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0208393 . Breed specific legislation can be harmful in that it can lead to even more stigmatization of breeds and inaccurate reporting of incidents. https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ness-and-recommendations-for-alternatives.pdf

Anyway, I hesitated to post more here because this is a sensitive topic. I obviously love my dog and feel bad for the dogs in the shelters who won't get adopted. I also understand that many of you have bad experiences that have formed your opinions, which I respect. I think it's fine for someone to say that a Pitbull is not the dog for them, but I really find it disturbing to read about Pits as "ticking time bombs" and needing to be culled. I would hope that those who have the situation to vote on breed specific legislation will consider the primary research and not just the biased trash that you can easily google and find on the internet.

You have to remember that pitbulls arent the only breed of dog in shelters that need to be adopted.

You also need to remember that you dont have a pitbull. You have a mix.

You also need to remember that pretty much everyone has a pitbull attack story that they know of. I have three that happened to me personally plus a few others that i know of that happened to friends or family.
If so many people believe pitbulls to be dangerous then maybe they are right.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[fishonjazz]

Just one other thing. I go to the dog park alot. Its one of my favorite places.
Dogs there often play together (its a dog park after all) and sometimes it gets a bit rough but only a few time have i seen a scuffle turn serious. Every time a pitbull was involved and was the aggressor.
Healers and border collies love to herd. Its what they were bred to do.
Know what pitbulls were bred to do? Fight. And they enjoy it. Why wouldnt they? They are the best at it and its what they were made for. I dont even think they know they are doing anything wrong when they are the dog park fighting with other dogs that are trying to escape them. I think that is how they play. I have seen owners close to throwing fists at the dog park because a pitbull is kicking the *** of some dog.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[LogGrad98]

Bite statistics are not super reliable, and almost all of the primary research that looks at them makes that disclaimer. However, I still think it's pretty clear that Pit's cause more severe biting incidents than other dogs. I believe this is due to two things. First, Pits aren't as vocal as other dogs. They don't growl or bark as warnings that they are agitated. If you understand dog body language it's all the same, but if you aren't familiar with dog body language you could be caught off guard. The second is that Pits have large mouths and strong bites. They don't have the strongest bite and they don't lock their jaws, those are both myths, but they are stronger than a lot of other dogs.

What you are describing is exactly what pits were bred for: fighting and killing other dogs. They have had the normal warning signs of an aggressive dog bred out of them. If you dig into it, you see that the most desirable trait in a pit is to give no sign whatsoever that an attack is imminent because that makes them that much more lethal in the fight, whether with another dog, or a human. Originally they were bred to bait bulls (hence the name bull dog), and they fought in pits, where the pit likely came from. They were bred to be quiet and emotionless killers, so the enemy did not know what was coming. They were breed for bite strength, stamina, and power, and insane tenacity. That is the breeding. You can say what you want about the behavior of any given pit, but the breeding is still there, even in mixes.

My sister in law was the biggest defender of pits, to the point she got banned from facebook once for hounding someone who was posting stories about pit attacks. My SIL had 2 pits, 1 of them for a dozen years, from a puppy. If you want a picture of a perfect owner, she was it. Obedience training, all the right things done with the dog, neutered, everything. Always spent time with it. The dog wanted for nothing and she trained it to be as kind and happy as she could. She was easily the most knowledgeable person I knew when it came to pits. She LOVED them.

Then one day she came home and found her pit attacking her other dog (a sweet lab mix) in the back yard. She said the fight was insanely ferocious and she was injured trying to intervene (many stiches on her hand and forearm and tendon damage that still affects her now like almost 10 years later). It was clear her other dog stood no chance even though physically it was taller and bigger than her pitbull. In the end she struck her pit in the groin with a rake handle or something repeatedly until it let go. Then it just came toward her, smiling with tongue out, as if nothing had ever happened. She said that was the only time she had ever been scared of the dog, and she was terrified. Her other dog died 3 days later of the wounds. She had the pit euthanized and immediately deleted nearly everything she had ever posted about pits being great pets. For 12 years she said her dog was the sweetest thing, loved kids, loved the other dogs she had. I had obviously spent a lot of time around her pets, and her pit was always very very well-behaved. She walked it without a leash because it responded so well to commands. It never made a single aggressive move toward another animal or person. Hell it had lived with the dog it killed for over 8 years, and they would always play together. The lab it killed was the most docile animal I had ever met, it always wanted to lay its head in your lap and you could not phase it no matter if you tried to tease or or anything. Then one day, the pit attacked and killed it for no discernable reason.

See that is the issue. If we are working together on a project and I slip with a screwdriver or something, you could get cut. But if I slip with a chainsaw you are going to be maimed or killed. Even thought I didn't intend it. Same with these dogs. Sure they might not slip up very often, but if a pit does slip, it kills. End of story. The unpredictability is what makes them so so dangerous. And the stealth attack bred into it makes it even more dangerous than you can know, because you will never see the attack coming.

You have to remember that pitbulls arent the only breed of dog in shelters that need to be adopted.

You also need to remember that you dont have a pitbull. You have a mix.

You also need to remember that pretty much everyone has a pitbull attack story that they know of. I have three that happened to me personally plus a few others that i know of that happened to friends or family.
If so many people believe pitbulls to be dangerous then maybe they are right.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

Great post.

There are so many good dog breeds, that are not bred to fight, that do not have that instinctual need to fight and kill enhanced in them through selective breeding by us horrible humans. Why not focus on them? Labs are the perfect example really, among the most docile and friendly dog breeds, if you just have to have a big dog. Or just get a mutt, which is a lot closer to a "real" dog than any of these Frankenstein breeds we have arbitrarily created over the last thousand years.

 

[One Brow]

Even so, targeting Pit Bulls, has shown to be very ineffective. Breed specific legislation has either shown a very minor reduction in dog bites or no effect.

We have to be careful to differentiate bite rate and bite seriousness. I have no reason to dispute that banning pit bulls has little effect on the rate of dog bites. They seem to create more serious bites than many other breeds.

 

[Gameface]

I've heard of dog bites from several types of dogs. Usually it's a one off bite or a relatively brief attack. Like the dog felt threatened or provoked and lashed out in the only way it knows how. Then the aggravating thing stops and the dog stops attacking. Sure, there may be an injury from the attack but it would almost never be life threatening, primarily because the dog had no intention to kill the other animal/person, they just wanted something to stop or go away.

With pits it seems like they go big or go home. Once they attack they seem to be very intent on ripping their target to shreds.

In most dog attacks you can figure out a reason for their sudden aggression. It seems like in many very brutal pit bull attacks the motivating factor is a complete mystery.

I really can't imagine why a person would take that chance and adopt a pit bull. So many awesome dog breeds out there.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

We have to be careful to differentiate bite rate and bite seriousness. I have no reason to dispute that banning pit bulls has little effect on the rate of dog bites. They seem to create more serious bites than many other breeds.

There is not a reduction in rate of hospitalizations from dog bites either.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence being passed around as facts in here. I think it is wrong since it spreads false thinking that results in great dogs not finding good homes, where otherwise they would be great pets. I guess I should probably avoid this thread since I am getting a little too worked up over words written on a computer screen.

 

[One Brow]

There is not a reduction in rate of hospitalizations from dog bites either.

That neither confirms nor disputes what I said.

 

[One Brow]

Dog bite injuries to the face: Is there risk with breed ownership? A systematic review with meta-analysis - PubMed

Breeds vary in both rates of biting and severity. The highest risk breeds had both a high rate of biting and caused significant tissue injury. Physical characteristics can also help determine risk for unknown or mixed dog breeds. Potential dog owners can utilize this data when assessing which...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Gameface]

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence being passed around as facts in here. I think it is wrong since it spreads false thinking that results in great dogs not finding good homes, where otherwise they would be great pets. I guess I should probably avoid this thread since I am getting a little too worked up over words written on a computer screen.

I agree that arguments against pit bull has been largely anecdotal, but as someone else mentioned, we all seem to have an anecdote or two specifically about pit bulls.

I hope you continue to participate as I do appreciate your point of view on this.

However, there are some stats on this

11. 46+ Breeds Associated with Fatal Attacks​

Over 46 breeds are associated with fatal attacks since 2016, including Akita, Boxer, Chow Chow, Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Giant Schnauzer, Husky, Labrador Retriever, Mastiff, Pitbull-Type, Rottweiler, and many other breeds and mixes. (10)

Top 10 Most Fatal Dog Breeds Table​

Breed	Deaths	% of Total
Pit bull	284	65.6%
Rottweiler	45	10.4%
German shepherd	20	4.6%
Mixed-breed	17	3.9%
American bulldog	15	3.5%
Mastiff/Bullmastiff	14	3.2%
Husky	13	3.0%
Unknown/unreleased	11	2.5%
Labrador retriever	9	2.1%
Boxer	7	1.6%

25+ Dog Bite Statistics | Top Dog Bites by Breed

We've done the research to bring together the most important dog bite statistics for This is the most up-to-date collection of statistics upon publishing.

www.mkplawgroup.com

 

[fishonjazz]

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence being passed around as facts in here. I think it is wrong since it spreads false thinking that results in great dogs not finding good homes, where otherwise they would be great pets. I guess I should probably avoid this thread since I am getting a little too worked up over words written on a computer screen.

My anecdotal evidence is factual. These attacks actually happened. My dog was bloodied by two different pitbulls. My cat was killed by a pitbull. I have witnessed dogs at the dog park get attacked by pitbulls. These are factual events. Anecdotal doesn't equate to untrue or false.

 

[LogGrad98]

My anecdotal evidence is factual. These attacks actually happened. My dog was bloodied by two different pitbulls. My cat was killed by a pitbull. I have witnessed dogs at the dog park get attacked by pitbulls. These are factual events. Anecdotal doesn't equate to untrue or false.

These are also important to note because there are not a ton of statistics about dogs biting humans, and with that there are virtually none about dogs attacking other dogs. There is no way to know how many attacks there have been that just didn't get reported anywhere. Yes this is true for all breed but I guarantee you that pits have a much much higher bite incident rate than my pomeranian as a breed.

 

[Gameface]

Pit bull attacked 81-year-old man in Millcreek

A Millcreek man, 81, is recovering after a pit bull attacked him, sending him to the hospital.

www.ksl.com

 

[Keefe]

I agree that arguments against pit bull has been largely anecdotal, but as someone else mentioned, we all seem to have an anecdote or two specifically about pit bulls.

I hope you continue to participate as I do appreciate your point of view on this.

However, there are some stats on this

11. 46+ Breeds Associated with Fatal Attacks​

Over 46 breeds are associated with fatal attacks since 2016, including Akita, Boxer, Chow Chow, Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Giant Schnauzer, Husky, Labrador Retriever, Mastiff, Pitbull-Type, Rottweiler, and many other breeds and mixes. (10)

Top 10 Most Fatal Dog Breeds Table​

Breed	Deaths	% of Total
Pit bull	284	65.6%
Rottweiler	45	10.4%
German shepherd	20	4.6%
Mixed-breed	17	3.9%
American bulldog	15	3.5%
Mastiff/Bullmastiff	14	3.2%
Husky	13	3.0%
Unknown/unreleased	11	2.5%
Labrador retriever	9	2.1%
Boxer	7	1.6%

25+ Dog Bite Statistics | Top Dog Bites by Breed

We've done the research to bring together the most important dog bite statistics for This is the most up-to-date collection of statistics upon publishing.

www.mkplawgroup.com

And I’ll go out on a ducking ledge here and say a large portion of those mixed breeds and unknown were pits too. **** them. Kill ‘em all off.

 

[LogGrad98]

Interesting. Kind of heavy handed and their "acceptable" breeds list is kind of lacking (like what about dachshunds or shih tzus, or many other small breeds). But I do like the idea of heavy fees for, and the need to, register big dangerous breeds at the very least. You can have your pitbull if you are willing to pay an annual fee of $1500 per dog and show evidence of registration in annual training for dangerous breeds, at the very least. But I'm still with @Keefe on this, we need to just stop breeding pitbulls.

Egypt bans all but 10 dog breeds after pit bull attack | Fortune

Cocker spaniel? Okay! Beagle? Nope.

fortune.com

 

[Jaymz]

Interesting. Kind of heavy handed and their "acceptable" breeds list is kind of lacking (like what about dachshunds or shih tzus, or many other small breeds). But I do like the idea of heavy fees for, and the need to, register big dangerous breeds at the very least. You can have your pitbull if you are willing to pay an annual fee of $1500 per dog and show evidence of registration in annual training for dangerous breeds, at the very least. But I'm still with @Keefe on this, we need to just stop breeding pitbulls.

Egypt bans all but 10 dog breeds after pit bull attack | Fortune

Cocker spaniel? Okay! Beagle? Nope.

fortune.com

This is a more fair approach. I don’t think a dog should be banned based off his breed when he perhaps has the best personality, no signs of aggression or otherwise.

Seems closely related to racism. Preemptive notions based off one’s own experiences. I for one, haven’t met an aggressive pit bull yet.

However, I’ve also always had a relationship with the owners.

I do think it is smart to have a safety precaution, obedience check, things of this nature because of why pit bulls were originally bred for. But those fees are a bit too high for what one person considers dangerous and another person considers a nanny dog.

 

[Gameface]

I for one, haven’t met an aggressive pit bull yet.

Obviously. If you had you'd be dead.

 

[Jaymz]

Lol.
If this thread was about poodles instead of pit bulls, I’d be hollering. Haven’t met a good poodle ever.

Also had my hand ravaged by one when I was like 7.

 

[JazzGal]

I wish dog owners would accept that, under the right circumstances, any dog could bite someone. I've been bitten, and my mom has been bitten, by dogs "who would never hurt anyone."

 

[Gameface]

This is all the reason I need to ban Pitbulls