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Why do we prefer Rudy over Donovan?

actusreus

Well-Known Member
It's worth asking. Rudy is awkward, prone to saying silly (albeit mostly true) things, unable to create offense, and polarizing to a lot of the rest of the league. Donovan is easily a top ten shot creator in the NBA, has gotten noticeably better every year, and almost always says the right things.

I myself prefer Rudy, and when I honestly ask why, I concluded it's at least in part because this team, historically, with its incredible insecurity, coupled with plodding, unremarkable but consistent good but not greatness, is exactly what Rudy has. We're not flashy, and neither is he. And oh, also because collectively we all think we have a better chance of keeping Rudy than Donovan, hence the salve to our insecurity.

Anyway, on paper we should absolutely like Donovan better. But I'd bet most of us don't.
 
- Rudy is arguably the best defender of all-time.

- All metrics point to Gobert being not only the best player on the team but a top-10 player in the NBA.

- Donovan would net us WAY more in a trade.

- Without Rudy our defense would literally be non-existent. He covers up so so so many mistakes.

- Imagine replacing Donovan with just one defender let alone a couple.

- Rudy affects winning more than Donovan.

I could go on but you get the point.
 
Yeah maybe, but mostly because he's weird and so is this state, and we're so freaking insecure about anyone leaving that if any player gives us the slightest bit of love, we hold onto him like grim death, which is not far off for this time by the way :-\
 
- Rudy is arguably the best defender of all-time.

- All metrics point to Gobert being not only the best player on the team but a top-10 player in the NBA.

- Donovan would net us WAY more in a trade.

- Without Rudy our defense would literally be non-existent. He covers up so so so many mistakes.

- Imagine replacing Donovan with just one defender let alone a couple.

- Rudy affects winning more than Donovan.

I could go on but you get the point.
And that’s the thread.
 
- Rudy is arguably the best defender of all-time.

- All metrics point to Gobert being not only the best player on the team but a top-10 player in the NBA.

- Donovan would net us WAY more in a trade.

- Without Rudy our defense would literally be non-existent. He covers up so so so many mistakes.

- Imagine replacing Donovan with just one defender let alone a couple.

- Rudy affects winning more than Donovan.

I could go on but you get the point.

Rudy gets his *** handed to him against great centers. Embiid, Jokic. He’s not the greatest defensive player ever.
 
Rudy is committed to this team. All he wants to do is win. He’ll do whatever it takes to clean up defensive lapses and sacrifice touches. I never get the sense he wants to be traded. I don’t sense that same committment from Mitchell. It’s a terrifying thought to think the Jazz may decide to trade Rudy, keep Mitchell, only to have Mitchell ask for a trade down the road. If the front office has any inkling Mitchell has itchy feet, they may as well trade him. As things stand now, I have absolutely no faith in this team, they’re soft as hell.
 
Rudy gets his *** handed to him against great centers. Embiid, Jokic. He’s not the greatest defensive player ever.
Embiid shoots something like 43% against Gobert for his career. No idea what the hell you are talking about.

The only center who has consistently good success against Gobert is Jokic and to a huge degree that's thanks to Jokic shooting like... 55-60% from 3 agains the Jazz the last 3-4 years.
 
Rudy gets his *** handed to him against great centers. Embiid, Jokic. He’s not the greatest defensive player ever.

The funniest **** ever is people saying Jokic destroys Gobert. When he scored 47 on us last year all the highlights showed someone besides Gobert as the main defender on like 85% of the shots lmao.
 
Embiid shoots something like 43% against Gobert for his career. No idea what the hell you are talking about.

The only center who has consistently good success against Gobert is Jokic and to a huge degree that's thanks to Jokic shooting like... 55-60% from 3 agains the Jazz the last 3-4 years.

And a lot of Jokic shooting that is cause Gobert can't follow him agressevely on the perimeter cause all the other 4 Jazz players suck on defense to a nearly unbelieveable level
 
Rudy loves us and so we in turn love him.

I am most interested in a rebuild, but if we’re going to try to stay competitive I’d rather get something for Don and rebuild around Rudy than become “Don and Friends” for a year until he demands to get traded to the Knicks. If Don would do something to reaffirm his commitment to the Jazz and we could actually get some more dudes that can defend, I’d reconsider. But Don doesn’t seem to be vibing with Utah these days.

I think at least one of and maybe both of Rudy and Don are team cancers. I hope the other guys on the roster are helping the FO navigate this.
 
Also the main tennet of being a Jazz can is you like team basketball and basketball that is "played the right way".

We have strayed from this tennet because Donovan is really ****ing good at being a score first player, but when the style fails we are going to turn on it more than we would a loss by the team.

Just look at Donovan's clutch stats this year. Guys like Lopo have constantly repeated Don's playoff performances being the things that give him the edge. It what makes people believe in him and his ability to take Utah to the next level. But at the end of the day those playoff performances are small samples, and within those amazing performances he still has major choke efforts (Game 1 and 7 vs Denver in the bubble come to mind). Is Mitchell just empty stats that has been supported by Goberts massive impact?
 
It's worth asking. Rudy is awkward, prone to saying silly (albeit mostly true) things, unable to create offense, and polarizing to a lot of the rest of the league. Donovan is easily a top ten shot creator in the NBA, has gotten noticeably better every year, and almost always says the right things.

I myself prefer Rudy, and when I honestly ask why, I concluded it's at least in part because this team, historically, with its incredible insecurity, coupled with plodding, unremarkable but consistent good but not greatness, is exactly what Rudy has. We're not flashy, and neither is he. And oh, also because collectively we all think we have a better chance of keeping Rudy than Donovan, hence the salve to our insecurity.

Anyway, on paper we should absolutely like Donovan better. But I'd bet most of us don't.
Basically Rudy embodies us and wants to be here and Donovan doesn’t. It’s that simple tbh.
 
- Rudy is arguably the best defender of all-time.

- All metrics point to Gobert being not only the best player on the team but a top-10 player in the NBA.

- Donovan would net us WAY more in a trade.

- Without Rudy our defense would literally be non-existent. He covers up so so so many mistakes.

- Imagine replacing Donovan with just one defender let alone a couple.

- Rudy affects winning more than Donovan.

I could go on but you get the point.
This, 1,000,000 times this. People just do not understand Rudy's impact on the game, especially if they are just casual observers. They only see the one or two blocks, maybe a big rebound. They see him fumble a pass at his knees or attempt an awkward finger-roll weird layup attempt. They note that he is "awkward". But they entirely miss the fact that just his mere presence changes what the other team does on offense, as in entirely. His defensive presence changes the entire game, in ways that casual observers just miss. The times a player veers out of the paint when they see him coming, the extra high arc on a shot that misses, the bad pass because Rudy is in the air space around it. These are intangibles that prove the fact that other good defensive players guard any one guy, while Rudy guards literally the entire other team.

They also miss that statistically, especially by advanced stats, Rudy is the most impactful defensive player in the last 6-8 years, meaning every single year the best there is. And frankly he has been historically excellent from a defensive standpoint. He has had multiple years of historic defensive stats. His rebounding is on another level, and he has stepped that up this year again. For multiple years he has had historic on/off splits, something few players have matched.. He should have 4 or 5 DPOYs already, from his impact alone. And he has consistently been among the most impactful on offense. What was it, 3 years ago he lead the league in both defensive and offensive rating, something that has been done by the same player something like 2 or 3 times in the history of the NBA. And he has been in the top 5 in both for more than a few years of his career.

Donovan is not among the league leaders in any real stat beyond scoring, and in that he is top 15. And he is also a league leader on ineptitude in the clutch, where Donovan is the worst among all players in the league in the last 5 minutes in close games. Mitchell can score at an elite level but he rarely takes over games and rarely has any other impact. If he isn't scoring, he contributes mostly turnovers. Gobert, on the other hand, when he is straight up being IGNORED by Mitchell in great positions to score, so he might only score 9 points, but he still pulls down 17 rebounds and has the game-saving block.

But because scoring is sexy and game-changing defense is not, Mitchell has much higher value, yet contributes far less on the court. So Mitchell is the one to move, get us a couple of good scorers and better perimeter defenders, and with Gobert in the middle, we can get to that championship. But I do not believe Mitchell will be able to lead anyone to a championship.

I have said this a lot, but right now, Gobert represents our floor as a team, meaning as long as we have Gobert we will be a playoff team, almost regardless of who we have with him. Take Gobert away as presently constituted, and we miss the playoffs every time. Mitchell, on the other hand, represents our ceiling. We need his top-level play to go deep in the playoffs. But without Gobert, we wouldn't even make the playoffs no matter what Mitchell does. But without Mitchell we really don't have a chance to go very deep in the playoffs.

But with his recent play, it is doubtful Mitchell can do anything to advance us in the playoffs. He is the antithesis of clutch. He really needs to learn to play at the end of games in a controlled manner and to have a bigger impact.

So if we are moving one of them, it needs to be Mitchell. He has higher value, and will get a bigger return, and Gobert has more value on the court. It is a no-brainer.

And yes, it is time to move Mitchell. He is purposely freezing out Gobert on offense and that is simply unacceptable. Move his *** and get someone in here who will play team ball.
 
Rudy gets his *** handed to him against great centers. Embiid, Jokic. He’s not the greatest defensive player ever.
Don't underestimate the tangential nature of that kind of defense. Those centers have such gravity that if the rest of the team isn't locked in on defending the other guys around, they can make the pass and set up their teammates for easy scores, especially Jokic. So if we had even passable defense at other positions and all Rudy had to worry about was Jokic or Embiid 1 on 1, it would be a different story. But our team D sucks balls and Rudy is the only one who can clean it up, so he gets pulled away and then they get easy looks. It is way more complicated than just Rudy sucks against good centers.

Also, realistically, everyone sucks against them. That is why they are MVP candidates. That is a tough measuring stick. I am pretty sure Mutombo didn't completely own Shaq.
 
Rudy actually wants to be here, signed an extension here instead of becoming an unrestricted free agent. I think it's really rare in this day and age for an all-star/all-NBA level player to want to be in Utah. He has said in interviews that teaming up with other stars and winning a championship wouldn't mean as much to him as winning one with the Jazz. I really don't want to reward his loyalty by trading him away.

I don't believe that Donovan wants to be here long term and if we don't trade him before his contract is up, we will be in the same exact spot we were with Hayward, he will walk and we will get nothing in return. Donovan's trade value is higher than Rudy's and we could get a much better package back for him. I also believe that it would be easier to re-tool around Rudy and stay competitive in the western conference than it would be to re-tool around Donovan. I honestly think we would be better off trading both and starting over with a re-build than we would be just trading Rudy.
 
This, 1,000,000 times this. People just do not understand Rudy's impact on the game, especially if they are just casual observers. They only see the one or two blocks, maybe a big rebound. They see him fumble a pass at his knees or attempt an awkward finger-roll weird layup attempt. They note that he is "awkward". But they entirely miss the fact that just his mere presence changes what the other team does on offense, as in entirely. His defensive presence changes the entire game, in ways that casual observers just miss. The times a player veers out of the paint when they see him coming, the extra high arc on a shot that misses, the bad pass because Rudy is in the air space around it. These are intangibles that prove the fact that other good defensive players guard any one guy, while Rudy guards literally the entire other team.

They also miss that statistically, especially by advanced stats, Rudy is the most impactful defensive player in the last 6-8 years, meaning every single year the best there is. And frankly he has been historically excellent from a defensive standpoint. He has had multiple years of historic defensive stats. His rebounding is on another level, and he has stepped that up this year again. For multiple years he has had historic on/off splits, something few players have matched.. He should have 4 or 5 DPOYs already, from his impact alone. And he has consistently been among the most impactful on offense. What was it, 3 years ago he lead the league in both defensive and offensive rating, something that has been done by the same player something like 2 or 3 times in the history of the NBA. And he has been in the top 5 in both for more than a few years of his career.

Donovan is not among the league leaders in any real stat beyond scoring, and in that he is top 15. And he is also a league leader on ineptitude in the clutch, where Donovan is the worst among all players in the league in the last 5 minutes in close games. Mitchell can score at an elite level but he rarely takes over games and rarely has any other impact. If he isn't scoring, he contributes mostly turnovers. Gobert, on the other hand, when he is straight up being IGNORED by Mitchell in great positions to score, so he might only score 9 points, but he still pulls down 17 rebounds and has the game-saving block.

But because scoring is sexy and game-changing defense is not, Mitchell has much higher value, yet contributes far less on the court. So Mitchell is the one to move, get us a couple of good scorers and better perimeter defenders, and with Gobert in the middle, we can get to that championship. But I do not believe Mitchell will be able to lead anyone to a championship.

I have said this a lot, but right now, Gobert represents our floor as a team, meaning as long as we have Gobert we will be a playoff team, almost regardless of who we have with him. Take Gobert away as presently constituted, and we miss the playoffs every time. Mitchell, on the other hand, represents our ceiling. We need his top-level play to go deep in the playoffs. But without Gobert, we wouldn't even make the playoffs no matter what Mitchell does. But without Mitchell we really don't have a chance to go very deep in the playoffs.

But with his recent play, it is doubtful Mitchell can do anything to advance us in the playoffs. He is the antithesis of clutch. He really needs to learn to play at the end of games in a controlled manner and to have a bigger impact.

So if we are moving one of them, it needs to be Mitchell. He has higher value, and will get a bigger return, and Gobert has more value on the court. It is a no-brainer.

And yes, it is time to move Mitchell. He is purposely freezing out Gobert on offense and that is simply unacceptable. Move his *** and get someone in here who will play team ball.

Great post. Worth the read.
 
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