The thought of giving the Thunder a big man who can actually score and a center with potential is too much for me to accept this trade.
Would you do this Paul Millsap trade?
- Thread starter Beantown
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theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
looks like i'm still in a small minority who thinks harden is fairly overrated as a player (along with spycam, orangello, and probably others i have missed).
harden had a crazy third year in terms of shooting (.660 TS%, top 5 in the league), but he still projects to be somewhere between a rich man's wesley matthews and a poor man's baron davis based on most similarity systems.
in fact, the players who had the most similar 3-year starts to harden's in terms of win shares are: norm nixon, allen iverson, kyle macy, eddie jones and reggie theus. nixon was a good player on a great team, AI went on to become a world-class scorer who couldn't ever get over the hump, jones enjoyed a long career but with a short and low peak, and the other two were essentially role players.
harden had a crazy third year in terms of shooting (.660 TS%, top 5 in the league), but he still projects to be somewhere between a rich man's wesley matthews and a poor man's baron davis based on most similarity systems.
in fact, the players who had the most similar 3-year starts to harden's in terms of win shares are: norm nixon, allen iverson, kyle macy, eddie jones and reggie theus. nixon was a good player on a great team, AI went on to become a world-class scorer who couldn't ever get over the hump, jones enjoyed a long career but with a short and low peak, and the other two were essentially role players.
orangello
Well-Known Member
I would throw Cy into that grouping as well.
And you'll go blind.
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
Ive always thought Harden is over rated, but since we give up a bench player and a totally unproven maybe good someday possible talent, Id say yes. Obviously it would be far better to me to throw in Burks instead of Kanter. Whoever said Burks is a sure thing to be better than Harden in this thread is crazy. He might, MIGHT, be better someday, but the people who say "NO DEAL, Howie" to get more usually go home with nothing.
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
Totally agree. I would love Harden, but NOT for Max money.
Back when most this board was clamoring that he was well worth Max money, I was saying he was a third option on his team and had never been proven to even be a leader or able to carry the load. You cant give max money to a 2nd or 3rd options player, franchise suicide. And he sure as hell shouldnt be our #1 option and leader, or we are sunk anyway. Great player if given decent money and a supporting role.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
good point, and i don't think harden will even be as good as joe.
I think Harden's offensive game will round out with a midrange game- but I believe last year was the high tide on his shooting percentages.
To be a number one option Harden needs to develop a midpost game and learn how to use screens off the ball better.
The real problem with Harden is that he is at best an average defender. IMO Hayward and Joe Johnson are superior defenders.
To be a number one option Harden needs to develop a midpost game and learn how to use screens off the ball better.
The real problem with Harden is that he is at best an average defender. IMO Hayward and Joe Johnson are superior defenders.
If it were Burks or Hayward instead of Kanter, I would do it.
The perfect for me would be Jefferson with either Burks or Hayward for Perkins and Harden.
Given that Ibaka is so defensive oriented with an improving face-up game and Perkins has no offensive game whatsoever, I would think that OKC might want Jefferson instead of Millsap. Jefferson would give them post offense that they don't have and Ibaka's defense would make up for Jefferson's lack of defense. They would make for a balanced front court.
The perfect for me would be Jefferson with either Burks or Hayward for Perkins and Harden.
Given that Ibaka is so defensive oriented with an improving face-up game and Perkins has no offensive game whatsoever, I would think that OKC might want Jefferson instead of Millsap. Jefferson would give them post offense that they don't have and Ibaka's defense would make up for Jefferson's lack of defense. They would make for a balanced front court.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
you've stated most of what i dislike about harden's game here -- especially the fact that he not only hasn't shown the midrange game you're talking about, he also hasn't shown the SKILL SET to develop any kind of midpost action. not saying he can't; kobe did mid-career and now is pretty dangerous in the post... i'm just saying it's not like he has the tools and just hasn't gone there yet.
i also don't love his work ethic, and his body language / leadership often sucks.
that said, i would still at least consider the trade just because it solves several different needs. i just think that any team that plans on harden to be THE guy to make them title contenders is going to be pretty disappointed.
His leadership sucks? I thought that was one of the things the Thunder love about Harden is his leadership, and I haven't heard anything negative about his work ethic.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
i'm not speaking for the thunder here. i'm sure if they say he's a good leader, he's probably a good locker room guy and all that. i'm referring to the fact that he spends long stretches standing around looking disinterested. he's the kind of guy who impacts games only in spurts and only when he's mentally locked in.
bjunior
Well-Known Member
I agree with this. As a 3rd or 4th option on a team he's very very valuable. But as a leader on a team he will fail. He can't win titles, but he can help to win one.
About Burks. I tell you, in his 3rd year, put him on a team like OKC behind guys like Durant and Westbrook and he will not be worse that Harden right now.