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SaltyDawg

SaltyDawg

Well-Known Member
So I decided to check out the Jazz board and see what what's what. It's been a while...

I remember everyone on this board blasting Boozer relentlessly for being soft. Supposedly all we needed was a "shot blocking center" and the Jazz would be the greatest team in the history of basketball. Supposedly Boozer's soft defense was the only thing wrong with the Jazz defense. Supposedly the Jazz were a great rebounding team without Boozer and Boozer's numbers were padded by stealing rebounds from his team mates. Supposedly the Jazz could put any scrub at power forward and they would automatically look like an all world player due to the Jazz offense.

Well here we are. We have a center averaging 2 blocks per game. We have a team who gets killed on the boards every night. We have Millsap looking like a scrub at power forward more often than he looks like a starter- especially when it comes to rebounding. We have one of the worst defensive teams in the league (especially lately).

And what do I see all over this board? People blasting the Jazz offense (and Jefferson) because Jefferson actually posts up. People blasting Jefferson's defense.

I guess people need to be careful what they wish for. Or I guess another way to put it is people will always find something to complain about.

Serious topic here. I was talking with one of my friends and he brought up a good point. If the Jazz could do it all over again, do they let Portland have Millsap and then match Wes Matthews? Would the Jazz really be any worse right now starting AK at power forward, or Okur at power forward, or even Elson or Evans? They would clearly be better off starting Matthews at sg than Bell, I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
 
Millsap has had a poor stretch, but you don't average 17 and 7 "looking like a scrub".

You are one of the bigger offenders of having an agenda that you won't let go on this site. Is Brewer an all-star making $8 million per year yet?
 
I definitely think the biggest difference in this Jazz team is not the change from Boozer to Jefferson (which is probably a slight net loss), but rather losing Matthews and Korver to pick up Bell (a massive net loss), and Okur being out with injury, and being horrible in his return thus far.

Millsap is a damn good player, an above-average starter for his position, and he'll come back from his recent uncharacteristic slump strong.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Millsap has had a poor stretch, but you don't average 17 and 7 "looking like a scrub".

You are one of the bigger offenders of having an agenda that you won't let go on this site. Is Brewer an all-star making $8 million per year yet?
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I never said Brewer was an all star. I said Brewer was a mid level player. And to be fair, he is getting 4.7 mil this year. If he doesn't get hurt and miss the season, he is probably getting the mid level right now. He'll have his day.

On Millsap... He's averaging 16.7 and 7.7. But how often does he hit those numbers? It seems like he plays like a star 1 out of every 5 games, and plays like a scrub 4 out of 5 games.

Looking at Millsap's game log, he got double digit rebounds in 4 of the first 6 games. He has got double digit rebounds in only 6 of the 40 games since then.

I think we can all agree that the Utah Jazz need their starting power forward to get double digit rebounds more often than 6 out of 40 games. Especially when the Jazz are getting killed on the boards every night. It's no longer a slump at 40 games...

Incidentally, Chicago has the 4th best record in the NBA right now, and they're 3rd overall in rebounds per game, and 3rd overall in fewest points allowed- and this is with Noah out. I think it's safe to say Boozer wasn't the cause of all the Jazz problems and getting rid of him wasn't automatically the solution.
 
Millsap's rebounding decrease is a tough one to explain. A few years back, he went on a very impressive ~15 game double-double streak with Boozer out. He had demonstrated the capability to average double digit rebounds.

Either he's stopped caring so much about rebounding after becoming a permanent starter, or perhaps it somehow has to do with playing with Al Jefferson (instead of say Okur, along side whom he was a double-double machine). It's very concerning, whatever the cause.
 
Obviously Millsap's size does make him wear out over time. Teams are going bigger and Sap has to bang with guys 3 inches taller and 15 pound heavier night after night. At the same time Boozer also wore down, he just flat out missed games, averaging about 60 a year and has missed over half the Bull's games this year. He is probably a slightly better player than Millsap when he plays, but at 15 million compared to 8 million KOC did the right thing to let him walk.
 
And Boozer's been missing most of the season, he's made an impact but he's missed enough games that you can't say their entire record is due to him. I don't have an agenda, and I'm not a Boozer hater. Most people would consider me a Boozer homer, actually. But there's more to this team than Boozer vs. Millsap, or Boozer vs. Jefferson.

I for one probably would have preferred if Boozer stayed, but that's tough to say. His disinterest in protecting the rim, the amount of games he missed, and the ******** he said made him an easy figure to dislike and hard to believe he could be a real cornerstone. Does the fact that his offense for his position is absolutely sublime in nearly every conceivable facet make up for all of those critical things? That was the question, and that would be the question if he was still here.

For my part, I think it's a tremendous waste of ______ to worry about the 'what ifs'. The team is what it is, and it needs to be fixed. Whether that's trade, modified game-plan, or both, it's not good now and it doesn't project well.
 
Salty, Boozer was'nt THE problem but he was definitely a considerable part of the problem on the defensive end. And although Al Jeff is averaging 2 blocks per game he is suited to be a PF at best. He is doing his best playing out of position and without having the benefit of a 100% healthy Okur spacing the floor for him like what Boozer had on the offensive end. Also he is still acclimatizing to the Jazz offense. You have to consider all these factors. On the defensive end he is overmatched physically on most nights.

You cannot compare a Boozer with 5 years experience with the Jazz system and playing with a fully healthy Okur and a new Big Al playing out of position with an undersized frontcourt companion in Millsap and pathetic outside shooting from the wings. We lost more than just Boozer in the offseason, remember. The replacements at the wings havent been great exactly, compounded by Okur's injury.
And AK is as inconsistent as always

The biggest mistake that has killed the Jazz franchise in the last 10 years has been the Kirilenko contract and the FO's stubborn refusal to trade him when they had the chance. LHM had a lot to do with it. I hope your time off the board has helped you realize that since you were a big LHM homer back then. I know you were upset with the Jazz giving away Brewer and Maynor but those moves were all as a result of the tight financial situation and AK's contract was responsible for that. Even letting go of Wes can be tied to AK's pathetic contract.
 
Jefferson isn't playing out of position. One of my concerns with him is that he doesn't have a position. A tweener. He's too slow to guard a lot of Cs, let alone PFs. But he's too short to be an imposing figure as a 5. He's played 5 almost exclusively for the previous 2 (and possibly 3) seasons.

Jefferson would play best next to another 4/5. Something the Jazz don't have.
 
And yeah of course Boozer's attendance record. Although it remains to be seen how Big Al's knees hold up. So far he hasnt missed any games(touchwood).

You put Boozer in a lineup that does not have Okur and where Booz needs to play center with Millsap as his frontcourt companion and AK/Bell as the outside "shooters". He is going to struggle mighty on both ends of the floor.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Jefferson isn't playing out of position. One of my concerns with him is that he doesn't have a position. A tweener. He's too slow to guard a lot of Cs, let alone PFs. But he's too short to be an imposing figure as a 5. He's played 5 almost exclusively for the previous 2 (and possibly 3) seasons.

Jefferson would play best next to another 4/5. Something the Jazz don't have.
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If Okur didnt injure himself Jazz would be ideally starting Al Jeff at 4 not 5.
Jefferson doesnt have the size to be a starting C on an elite team. Most elite centers are 6-11 or taller these days. I think he has been playing C in past for lack of options.
Agree though that he is somewhat of a tweener.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Jefferson isn't playing out of position. One of my concerns with him is that he doesn't have a position. A tweener. He's too slow to guard a lot of Cs, let alone PFs. But he's too short to be an imposing figure as a 5. He's played 5 almost exclusively for the previous 2 (and possibly 3) seasons.

Jefferson would play best next to another 4/5. Something the Jazz don't have.
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Slow but size counts for a lot. Jefferson is big enough most PF's can't just flat out shoot over him like they do to Millsap. Yes a few PF's might give him problems that like to face up from 15", such as Bosh, but I'll take that tradeoff over being under sized 7 days a week and Sunday.
 
SaltyDawg said:
I never said Brewer was an all star. I said Brewer was a mid level player. And to be fair, he is getting 4.7 mil this year. If he doesn't get hurt and miss the season, he is probably getting the mid level right now. He'll have his day.

On Millsap... He's averaging 16.7 and 7.7. But how often does he hit those numbers? It seems like he plays like a star 1 out of every 5 games, and plays like a scrub 4 out of 5 games.

Looking at Millsap's game log, he got double digit rebounds in 4 of the first 6 games. He has got double digit rebounds in only 6 of the 40 games since then.

I think we can all agree that the Utah Jazz need their starting power forward to get double digit rebounds more often than 6 out of 40 games. Especially when the Jazz are getting killed on the boards every night. It's no longer a slump at 40 games...

Incidentally, Chicago has the 4th best record in the NBA right now, and they're 3rd overall in rebounds per game, and 3rd overall in fewest points allowed- and this is with Noah out. I think it's safe to say Boozer wasn't the cause of all the Jazz problems and getting rid of him wasn't automatically the solution.
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Don't drag me into this.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Jefferson isn't playing out of position. One of my concerns with him is that he doesn't have a position. A tweener. He's too slow to guard a lot of Cs, let alone PFs. But he's too short to be an imposing figure as a 5. He's played 5 almost exclusively for the previous 2 (and possibly 3) seasons.
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Good point.

Another the thing with Jefferson with regard to rebounding is, along with the need to improve his reflex to box out, he's a bit slow to get off his feet to go for the rebound. Couple that with Sap just being undersized. They do get their share of rebounds somehow but they also give up more than a few to opposing teams.
 
The problem isn't Boozer over AJ. The problem is that Millsap use to come off the bench and provide the Jazz with scoring and energy. Now that he starts he is playing against better competition. I know he put up really good numbers when he replaced Boozer but it was for a small amount of time and he didnt have a player of AJ to compete with. Both AJ and Millsap basically play the same position. However, this issue is small compared to the fact that the Jazz let Matthews go and thought signing Bell would cover up their mistake of not offering Matthews a contract up front. Signing AK to his Max and then re-signing Okur for no apparent reason are the two biggest mistakes the organization have made. The real problem is the Jazz have not always done a good job of evaluting their own talent. For years they have overvalued AK, now it looks as though they might just let him expire and get nothing for him. Or they may just be dumb enough to offer him another contract for too much money.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Slow but size counts for a lot. Jefferson is big enough most PF's can't just flat out shoot over him like they do to Millsap. Yes a few PF's might give him problems that like to face up from 15", such as Bosh, but I'll take that tradeoff over being under sized 7 days a week and Sunday.
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And once again, old Jer's personnel selection comes in. He's got really 4 guys playing out of postion: AJ is a 4, Sap is a backup, AK is a 4, and Bell is done. Remember all the less-than-stellar C's Pops has played over the years instead of putting TD at the C? Who was it that killed the Jazz in one of their last playoff series, Oberto?

Sloan should start one of the 7 footers at C and get someone else on the floor for Bell to stretch the D. Heck, even Okur is not a real C but he is more serviceable there with his ability to force them to guard him out by the 3 line. But Jerry just loves to force round pegs into square holes, despite the results. Halfway throught the season and no adjustment.
 
vj_74 said:
You cannot compare a Boozer with 5 years experience with the Jazz system and playing with a fully healthy Okur and a new Big Al playing out of position with an undersized frontcourt companion in Millsap and pathetic outside shooting from the wings. We lost more than just Boozer in the offseason, remember. The replacements at the wings havent been great exactly, compounded by Okur's injury.
And AK is as inconsistent as always
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Exactly. This is Jefferson's first 45 games in the offense, and we're trying to say this was a bad move because he's not yet as comfortable as Bozzer was after 5 years. Give me a break! Our wings inability to make wide open shots is killing Al Jeff's production. Salty is accusing of everybody of being complainers while he continues to complain and attack what we got now. A nice way of arguing all sides...
 
nickyjam21 said:
Exactly. This is Jefferson's first 45 games in the offense, and we're trying to say this was a bad move because he's not yet as comfortable as Bozzer was after 5 years. Give me a break! Our wings inability to make wide open shots is killing Al Jeff's production. Salty is accusing of everybody of being complainers while he continues to complain and attack what we got now. A nice way of arguing all sides...
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Where did I say anything about Jefferson not being as comfortable as Boozer? I said people are blasting him for doing the things they blasted Boozer for not doing.

To be clear, I think Jefferson and Boozer is way better than Jefferson and Millsap. And I think Williams, Mathews, CJ, Okur, Jefferson, or Williams, Mathews, CJ, AK, and Jefferson, is way better than Williams, Bell, AK, Millsap, Jefferson.

Oh yeah, and I don't think a 6'10" 280 pounder who has played center his whole career is undersized or playing out of position.

And if the guy is playing almost exclusively in the post, and getting a pretty consistent (and improving) 17, 9, and 2, he is not getting "physically dominated" at center.

So to be clear, I don't think Jefferson is the problem, I think Raja Bell, Millsap, and to a lesser extent Jerry Sloan are the problems.


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