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the situation in Egypt

Stickler said:
Dutch, be careful that when you speak of America, you speak of its government, and not of its people.

In defense of our government, I would ask you: what role would you have them play in the Egyptian revolution? In the Middle East, a region where American credibility is a troubled thing at best, would you have America send in soldiers to oust the Egyptian president and overthrow the government there? That is not feasible -- our military is otherwise occupied. That is not wise -- the people of Egypt will replace Mubarak. American intervention is not necessary. In the event of American intervention, there are many powers in the region who would call a new government illegitimate, and it would result in a government that would be dangerously fragile. Is that what you would like to see for the people of Egypt?

Now, I was personally extremely disappointed in Obama's response the other day. (Was it only yesterday? This is all moving along so quickly.) I was upset that he did not come out on the side of the people, who are demanding freedom, equity, and quite possibly real democracy. I found his bet-hedging to be almost anti-human and robotically political. And yet I understood that it had to be that way, because of Egypt's positive relationship with Israel and the United States in a region where we need every friend we can find.

I'm rabid with anger at our American news sources, which are frankly, flat-out just not good enough.

I know there's a legion of people out there who hear the conservative commentators framing this revolution as a kind of punchline, and believe, because they are not exposed to better sources of information, that the Egyptians have taken to the streets because their dictator is not Muslim enough. Thousands or millions of Americans are worrying today over the potential for a new extreme Muslim regime to emerge out of this situation and further destabilize the world.

****ing hogwash.

So I, too, am displeased with America this week -- but the difference between you and me is that at least I can articulate why. This is not a moment to gloat over the evils of America in some half-assed gloat-speak. Where's America? Pffff. We didn't cause this. We couldn't have prevented this. And now that it's happening, we can't fix this.

This is in the hands of our Egyptian brothers and sisters.

How about the Royal Netherlands army swoops into Egypt and saves the day and feeds these people and ousts the despot and creates an Egyptian economy where every person can have a job and live with the dignity that they deserve? How'd that be? Where's the ****ing Dutch in all of this?
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lol stick i'm not a dutch citizen.

i am just saying america always sticks it bisnes where it does not belong. vietnam, iraq afganistan. and spreads a message of freedom/democracy. now that the people of a country ask for freedom and democracy America is nowhere to be found(by that i mean the government). wouldn't it be good if obama came out and said we support the PEOPLE of egypt. and are standing by to help them. and i mean not send tanks and (gay and straight ;) ) marines. i mean it could be just moral support. and if the people request it military support, doubt they will request it.

is America standing by with aid cus if this lasts any longer food might become scarce, medicene etc. is america ready to give that kind a support.

its not that america needs to do something. am i ragging on canada, zwitzerland or other countries? no because they never stick their nose in places they dont belong under the guise of catching this mythical make believe bin laden, or this mythical freeing iraq from tyranni.

i hope i gave a good indication of where i am coming from. they have been fighting for almost 10 years "liberating" and bringing "democracy". now that a country in the middle east WANTS it. they are doing nothing.

i get it it wasnt the goal of the war in iraq and afghanistan to bring democracy. it was a RETALIATION because of 9/11 and some oil thing.
so it was a lie. and because they are at war, they went to war on a lie. so they need to keep fighting on that lie.

i jsut think the american government sucks when it comes to the world. myabe they are great for their people.

no offens to americans though
 
If I were a flag-waver, I would begin to point out all the things that America has done for the world which were right, necessary, positive, and at great sacrifice -- because traditionally, American interventionism has been a force for tremendous good in the world. I would point out that America and its allies have _literally_ saved the world on more than one occasion. I would point out that American foreign aid feeds millions. I would point out that America builds schools in Iraq and Afghanistan and, in spite of its flaws -- and it has many -- over and over again, when faced with right and wrong, America chooses right. When faced with evil, America dares to say, "We won't let this happen."

Did Switzerland win World War 2? No sir. Neutrality is not some kind of inherent virtue.

But I know that if I did say that, an educated person (not you, perhaps, but someone a little bit like you but with a better command of history) would respond with a litany of things that America screwed up. America has blood on its hands, they would say. American interventionism has led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands. New governments supported by America have a habit of turning into dictatorships. Explain Disney, they would say. Explain ACTA. Your country is ****.

And the truth is we would both be right. I lean more toward the latter argument these days than the former.

Nevertheless, your points about Egypt, now, are complete nonsense. 'Cept for that one you picked up from me, just now, about how American should have taken the side of the protestors. But I'm not counting that, for obvious reasons.
 
wouldn't it be good if obama came out and said we support the PEOPLE of egypt. and are standing by to help them. and i mean not send tanks and (gay and straight ) marines.
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He has. He called for reform and says he disagreed with them cutting off internet and cell phone access. He has also said he supports the right of the people of Egypt to peacefully protest.
 
Chad Feldheimer said:
He has. He called for reform and says he disagreed with them cutting off internet and cell phone access. He has also said he supports the right of the people of Egypt to peacefully protest.
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my english might not be good. but from what i get from cnn is obama. is afraid to choose a side. cus if he chooses the people and the goverment stays in power he looses an ally.

sorry sticklerr if i offended ur country, and ur patriotism
 
Chad Feldheimer said:
He has. He called for reform and says he disagreed with them cutting off internet and cell phone access. He has also said he supports the right of the people of Egypt to peacefully protest.
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Obama's response was complete milquetoast. He seemed to be calling for reform within the framework of Mubarak remaining in power, and calling on Mubarak to show restraint in dealing with the protesters. That's the way I read it, perhaps you saw it differently. I thought he was trying very carefully to indicate that whichever way this goes, the victor will enjoy the support of the United States -- without saying it outright, lest he offend one side or the other. Yet, clearly the protesters are in the right. I hope he sees that, and was only being so careful because of Egypt's role in the region. I read it that way.

I'm not thrilled with it. He should have clearly and emphatically sided with the people. Just my opinion.

Dutch, you didn't offend my country or my patriotism, you just don't know what you're talking about.
 
Stickler said:
Obama's response was complete milquetoast. He seemed to be calling for reform within the framework of Mubarak remaining in power, and calling on Mubarak to show restraint in dealing with the protesters. That's the way I read it, perhaps you saw it differently. I thought he was trying very carefully to indicate that whichever way this goes, the victor will enjoy the support of the United States -- without saying it outright, lest he offend one side or the other. Yet, clearly the protesters are in the right. I hope he sees that, and was only being so careful because of Egypt's role in the region. I read it that way.

I'm not thrilled with it. He should have clearly and emphatically sided with the people. Just my opinion.

Dutch, you didn't offend my country or my patriotism, you just don't know what you're talking about.
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okay so obama supports a goverment who denies human rights. and obviosly keep their people down. a goverment who is not a democracy who is not fair?
just saying i find america(the goverment not the people) twofaced.
 
DutchJazzer said:
okay so obama supports a goverment who denies human rights. and obviosly keep their people down. a goverment who is not a democracy who is not fair?
just saying i find america(the goverment not the people) twofaced.
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You are not the only one. Most of the politically-minded but intellectually-challenged people here (as in, in america) find the other party beyond two-faced....normally they are portrayed as being the devil incarnate or of the intelligence of a jelly-fish with all the honesty of this guy:

[video]https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tommy-in-jail/281003/
 
DutchJazzer said:
okay so obama supports a goverment who denies human rights. and obviosly keep their people down. a goverment who is not a democracy who is not fair?
just saying i find america(the goverment not the people) twofaced.
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Easy Stefan....most Govs are two faced.
 
For those cheering on the "freedom fighters" in Egypt, my guess is that they will end up with an even more repressive government than what they are getting rid of. The most outspoken and powerful entity calling for "reform" and looking to take control at the moment is the Muslim Brotherhood. This is akin to the US government being overthrown and the Christian Coalition filling the vacuum of power.

It won't be a democratic replacement. It will end up being a theocratic government much like what we see in Iran. What happens when people try to voice their opinion in Iran? That's right, the government squashes them. Free indeed. The people of Egypt are going to get exactly what they are asking for. A new government. And they'll see how much worse life can be.
 
Marcus said:
For those cheering on the "freedom fighters" in Egypt, my guess is that they will end up with an even more repressive government than what they are getting rid of. The most outspoken and powerful entity calling for "reform" and looking to take control at the moment is the Muslim Brotherhood. This is akin to the US government being overthrown and the Christian Coalition filling the vacuum of power.

It won't be a democratic replacement. It will end up being a theocratic government much like what we see in Iran. What happens when people try to voice their opinion in Iran? That's right, the government squashes them. Free indeed. The people of Egypt are going to get exactly what they are asking for. A new government. And they'll see how much worse life can be.
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maybe not but a lot of countries had epic revolutions like this turns out for the better. need I name some examples?
it could be a represssive islamic goverment.
but the way these people are fighting and dying. i bet they wont take ****. so they might be better off.

and how cna you compare the current egyptian goverment to the us goverment?
 
Marcus said:
For those cheering on the "freedom fighters" in Egypt, my guess is that they will end up with an even more repressive government than what they are getting rid of. The most outspoken and powerful entity calling for "reform" and looking to take control at the moment is the Muslim Brotherhood. This is akin to the US government being overthrown and the Christian Coalition filling the vacuum of power.

It won't be a democratic replacement. It will end up being a theocratic government much like what we see in Iran. What happens when people try to voice their opinion in Iran? That's right, the government squashes them. Free indeed. The people of Egypt are going to get exactly what they are asking for. A new government. And they'll see how much worse life can be.
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This is the impression one might have from following the news that airs in the United States. Yet, as so often happens, a lot of the American news on the topic contains very little depth, and reports on only the most worrying aspects of the situation. Controversy and fear-mongering equals ratings. I feel as if, from following this situation all week on reddit, (and hence encountering possibly hundreds of sources with better information than the American media), watching dozens of videos straight from the streets of Egypt, and reading a lot of dispatches from Egyptians about the recent history of their country, I have a solid grasp on the situation.

I have been nothing but impressed with the Egyptian people. Their goals, and their methods, have been spectacular. There have been so many moments in this thing where they have risen to the occasion. The idea that this will end with them accepting a more oppressive regime is sensationalist stuff. It's not going to end that way.
 
Well done Stickler.

Why try to understand what is going on in Egypt through the prism of American media? Marcus has no idea what he is talking about. None.

Edited to add: Stick, you a fan of /r/gonewild?
 
for better or worse, the situation in Cairo (and the rest of Egypt for that matter) is reminding me of the French student protests of 1968
info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1968_in_France

or the Chinese student protests in Tiennamen Square about 20 years or so ago

except that these protests don't seem to be led by students, seems to be more general participation...
 
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