Could Kanter and Gobert have worked?

[Jazz4ever]

OKC lets Westbrook run around creating shots for himself and others. Its a perfect offense for Kanter because he doesn't have to think. Snyders system requires some ability to actively think out there which I don't think Kanter will ever be able to do.

Well yah, but he is also draining mid range jump shots at a near lethal rate (47% 10-16' and 37.5% 16-22'). He was flat out bricking wide open ones here. He probably doesn't get traded for scraps if he was hitting his mid range, but what can you do...

 

[addictionary]

The thing with Enes, he is doing what he does best really good since he joined Oklahoma. But he looks even worse on some defensive positions. Like if he doesn't care if they score or not. It's like he finds his new team collectively not caring for defense too much so he stopped imitating caring for it. He has to get better on D or this is his ceiling. Because he already is a really good offensive center. But his other end of the court game shadows his production a lot.

 

[stitches]

It's pretty safe to say that Jazz had a #3 pick which developed into max or near max big and traded it for 20c on a dollar. I can see why Kanter wanted out and why Jazz didn't keep him but it hurts to see how little we got for him.

That is like saying Utah Jazz defense sucks this year. You have to take time into account. The first 10 games of the season should not be weighed equally to the last 10 games. Next year are you going to be one of those retards that say "Utah's defense is so good this year they were so bad last year" without looking extra careful at the second half of this season.

If you are going to judge what Kanter would have been like in Utah, previous experience with Utah is the best predictor, not previous experience with OKC. When you play with MVP candidate PG, that makes your job much easier. When you play with elite stretch 4, who is also elite rim protector that makes your job much easier. When you have a ton of other players that stretch the floor that makes your job much easier as a big. In Utah Kanter would have had exactly what he had before he was traded - horrendous backcourt that cannot stretch the floor, horrible PG play that can't create any offense for him. Why is that even hard to understand?

Here's the two man line ups between our 3 bigs:

D. Favors | E. Kanter 840.1 minutes -2.5 points per 100 possessions
R. Gobert | E. Kanter 300.3 minutes -6.6 points per 100 possessions
D. Favors | R. Gobert 696.0 minutes +3.0 points per 100 possessions


About half of the minutes of the Favors/Gobert pairing is from after the trade, but even before it, it was still the best pairing out of all our bigs pairings.

 

[The Blue Elephant]

Kanters game depends on a pg who passes the ball to him. If you put Calvin Johnson on the Cleveland Browns with Johnny football throwing him the ball of course his stats are going to be bad.

 

[oldtimer]

There was no bigger supporter of Kanter the last four years then me. I believe the Jazz got completely hosed in the trade and I knew that he would shine in OKC. But even the most ardent supporters have to admit the one benefit of this trade has been watching Gobert in a starting role. He has been amazing.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Kanter ends up being an all star. It doesn't matter that he becomes a 20 point 10 rebound machine. He is gone and he isn't coming back. I've had to come to grips with that and so do all the other Kanter supporters.

 

[MT Steve]

Kanters game depends on a pg who passes the ball to him. If you put Calvin Johnson on the Cleveland Browns with Johnny football throwing him the ball of course his stats are going to be bad.

Well duh. Every big benefits from playing with a better PG. You think Favors wouldn't also get a large boost in his numbers if he played with Westbrook?

 

[Jazz4ever]

Kanter is benefiting from Westbrook's defensive attention, not his passing.

 

[The Blue Elephant]

Well duh. Every big benefits from playing with a better PG. You think Favors wouldn't also get a large boost in his numbers if he played with Westbrook?

According to OKC media guy

"Russell Westbrook has assisted on 39 of Enes Kanter's baskets. The rest of the Thunder roster: 13."

Favors would have increased too but Kanter has literally been triple teamed at times. Did you see the assist he had to Marrow last week? He is helping westbrook as well. Not every big would have taken advantage of Westbrook the same way that Kanter has.

 

[Maneesh]

There was no bigger supporter of Kanter the last four years then me. I believe the Jazz got completely hosed in the trade and I knew that he would shine in OKC. But even the most ardent supporters have to admit the one benefit of this trade has been watching Gobert in a starting role. He has been amazing.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Kanter ends up being an all star. It doesn't matter that he becomes a 20 point 10 rebound machine. He is gone and he isn't coming back. I've had to come to grips with that and so do all the other Kanter supporters.

This is true. Diamond77 doesn't even come in here for half a month and then shows up when Kanter plays well. Jazz fans don't care Kanter fans. We are moving on and we are better.

 

[Nate505]

According to OKC media guy

"Russell Westbrook has assisted on 39 of Enes Kanter's baskets. The rest of the Thunder roster: 13."

Favors would have increased too but Kanter has literally been triple teamed at times. Did you see the assist he had to Marrow last week? He is helping westbrook as well. Not every big would have taken advantage of Westbrook the same way that Kanter has.

He gets doubled and tripled and manages a whole 1.5 assists a game? Impressive.

 

[CAKAR]

lol, why would I eliminate Kanter's #'s in Utah when the entire premise of the topic is whether or not he would have fit with Gobert?

Of course Kanter's numbers improved in OKC - he's playing with an MVP candidate in Russell Westbrook instead of Utah's garbage backcourt and at a much faster pace.

Should we compare numbers from previor seasons than ? Here is even some guy telling Favors has better release, when he shoots beyond 67 percent from the line for his career. The last few games, he is playing alongside Adams and that is bad spacing, too. He still scores like a machine... Westbrook is passing the ball, because Kanter can almost score out of every posession...

- Jumpshots
- efficient FT shooting
- Post-Moves
- Face Up game
- Driving to the basket
- Potentially 3 point shot
- Great Hands, can catch everything


He even showed play making ability out of the post in some games... He has just to many moves... If he keeps this up next year, he will be an allstar.

He is better in almost everything he did here and also plays much more motivated... Favors, Gobert and almost everyone played with a lot of confidence here, Kanter lost it completely after that shoulder injury... Kanter gets better every game he plays, out their and he will keep getting better...

He is not treated anymore as a weakspot, who is the scapegoat after every loss. They look at him as a force and a big factor why OKC was able to keep their playoff spot. Their is trust at him and he is responding...

When you take numbers of Kanter prior All-Star, than you take numbers from a player who struggled mentally. The possesion he was in Utah the last 4 years, was a huge factor for Kanter not succeeding as expected.

If McGary was playing in Utah behind Kanter, he would probably get a lot of Kanter´s minutes. In OKC Mitch will get DNP, when Ibaka is back. Kanter is the much more talented player and they know how to produce star players in this league.

 

[Coach Ellis]

There was no bigger supporter of Kanter the last four years then me. I believe the Jazz got completely hosed in the trade and I knew that he would shine in OKC. But even the most ardent supporters have to admit the one benefit of this trade has been watching Gobert in a starting role. He has been amazing.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Kanter ends up being an all star. It doesn't matter that he becomes a 20 point 10 rebound machine. He is gone and he isn't coming back. I've had to come to grips with that and so do all the other Kanter supporters.

I was, and still am, a fan of Kanter. I believe that he was horribly mismanaged by Corbin and my biggest concern with him was that he would struggle with injuries (shoulder and knee already). What I really wanted to see was at least a month of Rudy and Favors starting with Kanter and Booker running the 2nd unit. I figured that Kanter would be 6th man of the year in that role. I was really hoping for a rotation of Gobert/Favors, Favors/Booker, Gobert/Kanter. . . and then mix and match with who needed a break and who was playing well. I believe that they would have gotten a better deal for Enes (and likely from an East Coast team, instead of selling low to a West Coast rival. Plus, I think that lineup would have won a few of the close games before the break. Oh well.

The plain and simple fact is that I wouldn't trade the new defensive identity for ANYTHING. Gobert and Favors were always destined to be the starters. The only questions should have been 1.) how would Enes function as a backup 4? (especially mentally and emotionally) and 2.) how much would he have been worth for the Jazz to keep?

I think that he would have been unhappy as a backup and he would have made a lot more money than Utah was willing to commit.

 

[fishonjazz]

Meh Dfav is better at defense. Can't have too much of that. I think both would have worked since Gobert really good but Dfav has the edge with defense and is already locked up.

This.
I think kanter and gobert would work pretty well, but favors and gobert is even better imo

 

[karl malone]

Yes, Kanter could have fit alongside Gobert, but that is because basically anyone can fit alongside Gobert. Sure, Kanter is better offensively than Favors in the sense that he can create his own offense (which he tried to do way too much), but Kanter did not fit in an offensive system built around ball movement. Once he got the ball, he was forcing up a shot no matter what the defense gave him, which is the opposite of what QS's system is all about: making the extra pass & taking what the opposing defense gives you. Once you factor in defense, character, & contract situation, Favors was clearly the better fit moving forward. Enes needs to be in the perfect situation, which was not Utah (& apparently is Oklahoma City). It's unfortunate that we had the 3rd pick in the draft & didn't get the type of star player you would expect out of such a high pick, but Gobert more than makes up for that. Offensively, disregarding system, Kanter is the better fit next to Rudy but there is a lot more to this game than just that side of the ball. The FO no doubt made the right decision regarding our front court, now we just have to find the right players to pair with them in the backcourt (ie: Exum & anyone who can hit a 3/play d).

 

[CAKAR]

Kanter always was a bad fit in Utah, people have to realize it. If you have Memo, Lord AL, Milsap, Favors, Evans you don´t draft a 19 year old player who needs playing time desperately. Kanter was drafted 3rd, but was treated like a late first round pick. In a team without already All-Star caliber Bigs, he would have produced like 12,12 per game, as a 19 year old rookie. He was pretty special and raw, but was treated like a D league scrub.

Thats just a big failure of management for not taking a guard with big time shooting ability like Klay, when they have already 4 great Bigs. With Klay, Burks, AL, Harris, Millsap to content for a Ring...

Now you have lost an potential All-Star Big-Man, without getting any value...

 

[Douchebag K]

Should we compare numbers from previor seasons than ? Here is even some guy telling Favors has better release, when he shoots beyond 67 percent from the line for his career. The last few games, he is playing alongside Adams and that is bad spacing, too. He still scores like a machine... Westbrook is passing the ball, because Kanter can almost score out of every posession...

- Jumpshots
- efficient FT shooting
- Post-Moves
- Face Up game
- Driving to the basket
- Potentially 3 point shot
- Great Hands, can catch everything


He even showed play making ability out of the post in some games... He has just to many moves... If he keeps this up next year, he will be an allstar.

He is better in almost everything he did here and also plays much more motivated... Favors, Gobert and almost everyone played with a lot of confidence here, Kanter lost it completely after that shoulder injury... Kanter gets better every game he plays, out their and he will keep getting better...

He is not treated anymore as a weakspot, who is the scapegoat after every loss. They look at him as a force and a big factor why OKC was able to keep their playoff spot. Their is trust at him and he is responding...

When you take numbers of Kanter prior All-Star, than you take numbers from a player who struggled mentally. The possesion he was in Utah the last 4 years, was a huge factor for Kanter not succeeding as expected.

If McGary was playing in Utah behind Kanter, he would probably get a lot of Kanter´s minutes. In OKC Mitch will get DNP, when Ibaka is back. Kanter is the much more talented player and they know how to produce star players in this league.

speaking of struggling mentally .. how do you think it'll pan out when KD is back, Ibaka is back and come playoff time they have a full roster and his touches go way down and OKC look to try to knuckle down on defense ??

 

[enchilada_style]

Not even a championship will end these threads.

 

[CAKAR]

speaking of struggling mentally .. how do you think it'll pan out when KD is back, Ibaka is back and come playoff time they have a full roster and his touches go way down and OKC look to try to knuckle down on defense ??

Knuckle down on defense ? Kevin Durant is a great defender and Ibaka is also one of the best in the league. As long as he is on the court, he will always be an reliable option, to get easy buckets and still score big time some games... OKC was looking for an offensive Big, who runs the court and can get easy buckets. If the plan was to knuckle down on defense, they would have kept Kendrick Perkins...

 

[Jazz Insider]

think of it

 

[Stifle Tower]

Would love a comprehensive breakdown of all of both players' stats (raw and in-depth) since the trade. They've both been playing really well, the obvious difference is our guy is a more-than-competant defender. Imagine Enes in this switch-on-everything action.

Exactly. Just watch any game and see how many times Favors or Gobert are out top guarding a wing. Gobert could NOT have covered Kanter's defensive deficiencies. A lot of times, players will avoid Gobert only to be met by Favors. Derrick often has more blocks than Rudy.

There is NO question Enes is a tremendous offensive player. But Kanter doesn't shoot 3's efficiently. So you can't call him a stretch-4. He needs to be around the basket with his Big Al-like moves. Would Gobert-Kanter have been a better pairing offensively? Yes. But even the OKC-Kanter we're seeing right now (in his contract push) would have given up as many points on defense as he gave Utah on offense. Kanter-Gobert vs. Favors-Gobert is - at best - a net wash.

And then you DO need to consider contracts as well as attitude. Kanter was going to want a max contract; we know that. His circumstances weren't much different than Favors. Derrick got 19-23 mins/per his first three years. That went up to 30 (vs 27 for Enes) after the Jazz got rid of Millsap and Big Al. But Derrick didn't grouse. He worked his butt off and signed a new contract with the Jazz (for a bargain $12M). He's made it known he likes Utah. There is ZERO doubt Utah chose the right two players. And no, there never was option B of expecting to have Favors come off the bench. Going forward, you can't afford to have Kanter at $16M, Gobert at likely $20M and Derrick at $16M? once his contract comes up. Even with a $90M-$100M cap, paying 3 bigs 60%+ of cap space just doesn't work financially.