Would you trade Exum for Lavine?

[Handlogten's Heros]

I would argue that we do know about Dante's offense, and it's awful. Just as bad as Zach's defense.

Lavine is a MUCH better player right now, but I still would not trade Dante for him. We had to know when drafting him that Dante's learning curve was going to be huge. I'm expecting major leaps from Dante next year. Plus, we don't really need a wing scorer right now. I think Lavine ends up being a really good starting 2. We HAVE to find a good PG.

I don't get why people keep bashing Lavine's BB IQ. He's averaging more assists per minute than Dante, and that is with far worse players around him. He does average an extra TO per game, but I chalk that up to being aggressive and learning. Just because the guy put his head down at the draft doesn't mean he's not a smart player or good teammate. I follow the wolves pretty closely and from all account Lavine is the hardest working person on the team. Apparently he has repeatedly asked to skip some team activities (bowling, movies, dinner) to stay in the gym with a coach and work on his game.

As for Dante, not many players averaging 4 pts, 2 assists, 1.5 rebounds a game get to play 22 minutes a game. He should consider himself fortunate. He HAS to improve substantially just to stick in the league. I think he will.

https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM Scroll to the bottom of page 12 to see where Lavine lands in RPM. This stat is supposed to adjust for how crappy the players are around them so don't tell me it is just because he plays on a ****ty team. I don't think Lavine is a MUCH better player than anyone right now. He looks good and does some good things, but he is almost the most ineffective player in the league right now.

If my life depended on a basketball game right now and I was forced to have one of these players as my point guard I would absolutely choose Dante. You can hide a lot easier on offense by deferring, which Dante does too much, it is much more difficult to hide on defense. Trey was killing the wolves in the paint last night... a good portion of that was Lavine's issue. Imagine what it is like if he has to guard someone good.

Again, I like Lavine... never bashed him.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM Scroll to the bottom of page 12 to see where Lavine lands in RPM. This stat is supposed to adjust for how crappy the players are around them so don't tell me it is just because he plays on a ****ty team. I don't think Lavine is a MUCH better player than anyone right now. He looks good and does some good things, but he is almost the most ineffective player in the league right now.

If my life depended on a basketball game right now and I was forced to have one of these players as my point guard I would absolutely choose Dante. You can hide a lot easier on offense by deferring, which Dante does too much, it is much more difficult to hide on defense. Trey was killing the wolves in the paint last night... a good portion of that was Lavine's issue. Imagine what it is like if he has to guard someone good.

Again, I like Lavine... never bashed him.

Id probably take LaVine right now. If the other team is smart, they don't even defend Dante at all. LaVine at least has to be guarded.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Agree with Alaskin Assassin. Dante will get better, but these arguments against Lavine are stupid at best. Lavine is a very hard worker who wants to get better. You pair that with his size, age, natural aggressiveness and incredible talent, and it is really hard to imagine him as failing.

I dont think anyone called him a bust, or failing. I and others just think Dante is better.

I think Dante is better right now and will continue to stay better for his career.

Dante is helping our team win basketball games, Lavine is not.

Even D-league talent puts up decent stats on really bad teams, that does not win you games. I generally assume that people who really like Lavine and think he is better prosepct than Exum look at the boxscore and have only seen him play against the Jazz.

 

[Eminence]

I dont think anyone called him a bust, or failing. I and others just think Dante is better.

I think Dante is better right now and will continue to stay better for his career.

Dante is helping our team win basketball games, Lavine is not.

Even D-league talent puts up decent stats on really bad teams, that does not win you games. I generally assume that people who really like Lavine and think he is better prosepct than Exum look at the boxscore and have only seen him play against the Jazz.

I'd say I'd second this, his two recent games against the Jazz are two of his best games of the season, greatly effecting our opinions on him.

I'd say he and Dante are about equal right now, though in very different ways, but overall I still prefer Dante long term.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Id probably take LaVine right now. If the other team is smart, they don't even defend Dante at all. LaVine at least has to be guarded.

Exum hits his open set shots at a high enough clip that he has to be guarded right now. He also has been driving and if no one stepped over to guard him he would make the open layup. When teams step up to defend him he makes great smart passes usually.


Physically this season has been a much larger toll on Exum than Lavine as well. Lavine is physically more mature than Exum and is used to playing more games.

 

[Sexual Favors]

I dont think anyone called him a bust, or failing. I and others just think Dante is better.

I generally assume that people who really like Lavine and think he is better prosepct than Exum look at the boxscore and have only seen him play against the Jazz.

You assume too much. I've probably watched half of the Twolves games this year (I have a job that has a lot of slow time). His increase in production has been happening since March 15th, which is the exact date that Flip started giving him more minutes.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Id probably take LaVine right now. If the other team is smart, they don't even defend Dante at all. LaVine at least has to be guarded.

I think it was the Denver game where they basically did just that. On every pick and roll with Exum, they simply left Exum alone and played the pass and the Jazz couldn't execute with Exum on the floor. He didn't play in the second half, IIRC.

I thought this fantasy spin was kinda funny:

Exum has been a non-factor on the offensive side of the court recently. Over his last five games, he's averaged 1.4 points, 2.0 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1.0 steal, and 0.2 three-pointers in 21 minutes per game. Those numbers are incomprehensibly poor, and he can't be trusted in any leagues at this point.

 

[Ron Mexico]

You assume too much. I've probably watched half of the Twolves games this year (I have a job that has a lot of slow time). His increase in production has been happening since March 15th, which is the exact date that Flip started giving him more minutes.

Also, comparing a lottery pick with Lavine's gifts to a Dleague player is wreckless.

First of all I still assume I am right even if 1 or 2 people claim they watch a lot of their games and do. Second I am not saying Lavine is D-league talent I am saying that stats on bad teams can be deceptive. Actually stats in general are deceptive and when you rely on them too much you can be very wrong about players.

That said I could be completely wrong, Lavine has the tools to be pretty good.

 

[Sexual Favors]

Exum hits his open set shots at a high enough clip that he has to be guarded right now. He also has been driving and if no one stepped over to guard him he would make the open layup. When teams step up to defend him he makes great smart passes usually.


Physically this season has been a much larger toll on Exum than Lavine as well. Lavine is physically more mature than Exum and is used to playing more games.

Lavine has played in 1585 minutes, Exum has played 1583. Lavine hardly played at college and wasn't a top recruit. Exum went to basketball academy, played in the Nike Hoops Summit, FIBA U-19, etc. How is Lavine used to playing more games?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Do people think Lavine had a good game last night? Just curious...

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM Scroll to the bottom of page 12 to see where Lavine lands in RPM. This stat is supposed to adjust for how crappy the players are around them so don't tell me it is just because he plays on a ****ty team. I don't think Lavine is a MUCH better player than anyone right now. He looks good and does some good things, but he is almost the most ineffective player in the league right now.

If my life depended on a basketball game right now and I was forced to have one of these players as my point guard I would absolutely choose Dante. You can hide a lot easier on offense by deferring, which Dante does too much, it is much more difficult to hide on defense. Trey was killing the wolves in the paint last night... a good portion of that was Lavine's issue. Imagine what it is like if he has to guard someone good.

Again, I like Lavine... never bashed him.

Good points. Lavine certainly isn't helping anyone win games right now. But, are rookies supposed to help you win right away? I think it's safe to assume that we don't judge rookies on their net floor impact during their first year. We look for what their potential is, attitude, work ethic, etc. This article talks about why we don't judge Rookies on RPM.

https://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11340466/rookies-andrew-wiggins-rarely-make-sudden-impact

The article talks about how RPM during a rookie year doesn't really correlate with how they will play long term, and how drafting for rookies that help you "win now" is a fool's errand.

Quote: "Consider reigning MVP Kevin Durant. His first-year RPM was a horrid minus-3.2. His second year? A tepid minus-1.5. But in his third year it all came together, and he posted an elite RPM of plus-6.2."

"As shown, NBA rookies -- even high lottery picks -- usually post starkly negative RPM values. In other words, they are hurting their respective teams more than they are helping. Even among players drafted No. 1 overall, including luminaries such as James, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Derrick Rose and Blake Griffin, the average first-year RPM has been an uninspiring minus-1.0. That's the same as the per-possession impact of a mediocre bench player."

 

[Ron Mexico]

Lavine has played in 1585 minutes, Exum has played 1583. Lavine hardly played at college and wasn't a top recruit. Exum went to basketball academy, played in the Nike Hoops Summit, FIBA U-19, etc. How is Lavine used to playing more games?

He played in 37 games 904 minutes against college competition and played in a lot of other stuff, where Exum played half that against high school kids and then basically took 1/2 a year off to prepare for the NBA.

 

[da ThRONe]

Exum hits his open set shots at a high enough clip that he has to be guarded right now. He also has been driving and if no one stepped over to guard him he would make the open layup. When teams step up to defend him he makes great smart passes usually.


Physically this season has been a much larger toll on Exum than Lavine as well. Lavine is physically more mature than Exum and is used to playing more games.

The vast majority of Exum shots are open set shots. Still is no threat on offense right now.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Defense wins championships.

Exum's defense is very good. Arguably the best rookie defender.
IMO it's much more difficult to get a player to care about defense, than care about offense.

When Exum takes a billion practice shots in the off season with a good coach, all but the most absurd of posters here will clearly be glad we have Exum instead of The Vine.

That's just what I think will happen... could be the cool aid talking... but I really like his defense.

The offense will come... maybe slowly, but it will come.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Dante is helping our team win basketball games, Lavine is not.

No he is not. Exum has a negative RPM. It's better than Lavine's, but he's not helping win games.

I generally assume that people who really like Lavine and think he is better prosepct than Exum look at the boxscore and have only seen him play against the Jazz.

It's the other way around. Fans that actually have watched more than a couple T-Wolves games this year KNOW that Lavine is better right now. Boxscores are only part of the puzzle. Watching Lavine play, seeing his confidence and aggressiveness, that's what tells me he's better right now.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

No he is not. Exum has a negative RPM. It's better than Lavine's, but he's not helping win games.



It's the other way around. Fans that actually have watched more than a couple T-Wolves games this year KNOW that Lavine is better right now. Boxscores are only part of the puzzle. Watching Lavine play, seeing his confidence and aggressiveness, that's what tells me he's better right now.

The bottom line is when Exum is on the court the team averages 106.4 pts per 100 possessions offensively, and allows 105.9 pts per 100 possessions defensively.

When Exum is off the court the team averages 108.2 pts per 100 possessions offensively, and allows 113.4 pts per 100 possessions defensively.

I'm pretty sure this means that Exum actually does help this team win ballgames.

 

[Ron Mexico]

The vast majority of Exum shots are open set shots. Still is no threat on offense right now.

I think that making shots when left open is what causes people to have to guard you.

 

[Qman]

No he is not. Exum has a negative RPM. It's better than Lavine's, but he's not helping win games.



It's the other way around. Fans that actually have watched more than a couple T-Wolves games this year KNOW that Lavine is better right now. Boxscores are only part of the puzzle. Watching Lavine play, seeing his confidence and aggressiveness, that's what tells me he's better right now.

I was watching them guard each other last night. Exum looks like his frame will fill out and LaVine looks like he will always be super skinny. Also think about how Hayward, Burks and Favors have physically progressed. It has taken 4 years but Hayward is hitting his physical potential. Exum's physical potential is scary good. And that is basically what we have to go on.

 

[jope]

The thing that eats at me about exum is he is nothing like I thought he would be. I though he would be getting in the lane at will, and be working toward finishing with contact. Like burks with better vision. He has absolutely been the opposite of that.. Was he just fools gold, or is he trying not to be himself?

 

[Ron Mexico]

No he is not. Exum has a negative RPM. It's better than Lavine's, but he's not helping win games.



It's the other way around. Fans that actually have watched more than a couple T-Wolves games this year KNOW that Lavine is better right now. Boxscores are only part of the puzzle. Watching Lavine play, seeing his confidence and aggressiveness, that's what tells me he's better right now.

Jazz have been winning with him as starter at a pretty good clip. He makes the Jazz better, lavine does not make minny better right now.

I seriously doubt more than 1 or 2 people here watches lots of Minny games. I have watched about 20 only because I really like Maple Jordan and want to see as many as I can. Minny is really hard to watch though and that is about my limit. Lavine is really hard to watch most of the time.