Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

[Dr. Jones]

I disagree in parts, because when it comes to salvation, it is all about grace. It says it right in the Bible. Works show that we are saved, but are not how we become saved. That is a very important distinction.

We said nothing differently. Yes, by grace alone... but if works are the evidence of faith, then...

Pssst - it's called an olive branch.

 

[sgjazzfan]

I'll do my best.

This is from religion facts, just a site with the basic outlines of all religions:

That's saying that through our works, our deeds, we can earn our salvation.

Here's the 3rd Article of Faith:

These seem to contradict what Paul wrote when he said that we are saved by grace alone, so that no man may boast of his works. Now I'm not saying works are bad, they certainly are necessary. James says that our faith is dead if we have no works, but that does not mean that our works lead to salvation, but that grace leads to salvation which leads to works.

Now I'm reading a Mormon article from one of the leaders in 1981 on this subject, and I see more that contradicts the Bible. Apparently there is the belief that children cannot sin. This would contradict Romans 3:23, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Emphasis is mine). Our sinful, carnal nature does not allow us to earn our salvation through works, for the only way to earn it would to be perfect, and that is impossible.

Salvation is a wonderful gift that we have been given, don't folly and think that it's something you can earn. Take, accept the gift from Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, for He said, "If you love me you will obey me." (Jesus was kinda legalistic like that).

Here are a few article outlining some views on how the Church views Grace. Like I said I think I'm just beginning to understand it myself.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox_his-grace-is-sufficient/

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng

My favorite quote from the first article.

I have born-again Christian friends who say to me, “You Mormons are trying to earn your way to heaven.”

I say, “No, we are not earning heaven. We are learning heaven. We are preparing for it (see D&C 78:7). We are practicing for it.”

Another thing I don't understand...Mormon teaching says that we were spirits residing with God before time, but He sent us down so that we could progress. Now as I understand it, to be in God's presence you have to be sanctified, which is to be made holy, or perfect. God does not allow imperfection around Him. So how could we be these perfect spirits, yet need to progress? And how could we be perfect and then once in Earth become sinners?

As far as this, I think the distinction is perfection vs cleanliness. No unclean thing can be in gods presence. I don't think that means perfection.

 

[BENTLEY]

Eyeroll- Take out your King James Bible read through it. If it is a quality version, there will be italicized words among the verses. These are places where a direct translation cannot apply and make sense, so the writers did their best to "spackle the joints" with language that would make sense to an English reader. in a few cases, not many, these can have a small effect on the outcome of the text. Certainly not to any great doctrinal length. I can't think of any large doctrinal parts of the Bible that Mormons "throw out." Additionally, there are parts of the Bible that contradict other parts of the Bible, so you can either put the blame on "translation" or that God is confused. What are you going to go with?

The King James translation is beautiful but you're correct it isn't perfect. And its few imperfections were copied into the Book of Mormon (You do know that sections of Isaiah are copied into the BofM. Maybe you don't know that). But as far as sections "thrown out", yeah, Mormons reject the idea that we are saved by Grace, ie: that Jesus has already paid the penalty for us. Instead they hold to a doctrine where we have to do all we can do in order for his payment to be valid. Elder Bednar gave a talk on this - totally in conflict with Paul's words.

Can you give me an example of parts of the Bible contradicting other parts of the Bible? This is a vague myth that get repeated endlessly and you maybe heard it and are repeating it. If you have specific contradictions I'd like to hear them. I can give you one mormons have used with me and is apropos to the topic of grace vs. works: James 2:14-18. "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." If James is saying you need works to be saved then that is in conflict with Paul's words, but that's not what James is saying. There were members in the early church who, hearing Paul's words on grace, went about confident that they'd been saved but NOT feeding His sheep, as it were. James is addressing this. IF you have faith THEN your works will be a demonstrable sign of that faith. If you don't do any works then you don't have faith in Jesus' words. This whole faith vs. works thing really gets into the minutia, but don't you agree that a minute study of Christianity is superior to a general one?

I'm reminded of Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus is tells of separating the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So these people believe they were following Christ, right? They said hey we we prophesied in Your name and cast out devils in Your name, so they consider themselves followers of Christ. But what is Jesus' reply? I don't know you.

Who are these "Christians" who believe they are followers of Christ but don't really know Him? Anyone else ever wondered this? I don't know who these people are but they might be mormons. Mormons waste a lot of their study on the talks in conference (which are often very good - Jeff Holland is a charismatic orator - but so was Paul Dunn). Or they study the BofM - and there's a lot of stuff that agrees with Christianity in the BofM, although none of those people ever existed and Jesus never came to this continent to deliver the sermon on the mount. If the BofM were an actual record of history we would expect to find some remnant of these huge battles, these populous people. But nothing. And so "faithful" member are left scrambling to explain this lack of evidence. And what is their testimony finally rested on? Faith that J.Smith was telling the truth even though there is nothing to back it up. This is a test of our faith to see if we'll believe in spite of the fact that there is no evidence these people ever existed. Does God really want us to ignore this discrepancy? Is that God's character? Or were the old Testament prophesies supposed to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ to give evidence that the prophets were telling the truth - evidence. Anyway, I love my mormon family and friends but I wish they would follow after truth no matter what the outcome turns out to be. And though it's earth shattering to realize what we were raised in is not as terrifically true as we'd been told, the truth is Jesus still wants us to know Him. The truth about Him. Don't listen to Charles Taze Russell and his JW Watchtower. Same goes for J.Smith and his take on Christianity.

Oh, man. I just thought of something else. Go read the King Follet discourse - it's on lds.org. Joe Smith talks about the true nature of God and it's hilarious. Don't you think the nature of God is kind of a big deal?

 

[LogGrad98]

Lots of contradictions in numbers in the OT. Too lazy to look many of them up. Descriptions of the same battles talk of 4000 horsemen, or 40,000 horsemen, or 7,000 foot soldiers or 700, etc. Can't remember the exact numbers. These are likely transcription errors that have persisted.

 

[BENTLEY]

You make it sound like the original writings were taken from Greek and then translated into English. Voila, the New Testament.

Yep. It was Wycliffe who first translated the New Testament from Greek into English in the 1380s. 1 step.

 

[BENTLEY]

Lots of contradictions in numbers in the OT. Too lazy to look many of them up. Descriptions of the same battles talk of 4000 horsemen, or 40,000 horsemen, or 7,000 foot soldiers or 700, etc. Can't remember the exact numbers. These are likely transcription errors that have persisted.

The Book of Numbers? This rebuttal is vague and you're too lazy to bother so...

 

[framer]

One of these is wrong. . .

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Also, Jesus did not die 3 times:

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."


God is seen:

"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God cannot be seen:

"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)

There are more, but these 3 are enough to prove the point.

 

[framer]

I'll do my best.

This is from religion facts, just a site with the basic outlines of all religions:

That's saying that through our works, our deeds, we can earn our salvation.

Here's the 3rd Article of Faith:

These seem to contradict what Paul wrote when he said that we are saved by grace alone, so that no man may boast of his works. Now I'm not saying works are bad, they certainly are necessary. James says that our faith is dead if we have no works, but that does not mean that our works lead to salvation, but that grace leads to salvation which leads to works.

Now I'm reading a Mormon article from one of the leaders in 1981 on this subject, and I see more that contradicts the Bible. Apparently there is the belief that children cannot sin. This would contradict Romans 3:23, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Emphasis is mine). Our sinful, carnal nature does not allow us to earn our salvation through works, for the only way to earn it would to be perfect, and that is impossible.

Salvation is a wonderful gift that we have been given, don't folly and think that it's something you can earn. Take, accept the gift from Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, for He said, "If you love me you will obey me." (Jesus was kinda legalistic like that).

You need to outline the fourth article also which outlines those laws and ordinances:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The faith is there and is the first principle upon which all others rest. None of the rest is possible without it. Repentance is the next and is VERY important both to Mormons and Biblically. You cannot skip over repentance and call yourself a Christian. You just can't. Baptism is required throughout the New Testament. The laying on of hands thing is more Mormon, but has scriptural roots. Basically Mormons think Jesus was serious when he tells people they must repent and that command wasn't countermanded by a later interpretation of Paul. "Works" are an ongoing struggle to fulfill this requirement which in turn strengthens faith. Faith is not an ordinance, it is something you develop continually, and each step brings you closer to God whose grace makes repentance possible.

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[RandyForRubio]

As I have mentioned several times, works are a sign we are believers, but they do not make us believers.

As for baptism, you mentioned that it is required throughout the NT, but I have to ask you, was the man on the cross next to Jesus baptized? Again, we are not saved by our works but through grace. The Bible could not be more clear.

 

[b_line]

I

I'm not Mormon, but yes. According to everyone I know that is accurate.
Not that I was asked, but I believe the Bible is inspired but written/re-written by fallible men (albeit also inspired).
In my way of belief, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, I get what is needed, for me, at that time, when I seek Him through His Word.

This is petty much exactly the way Mormons believe about in the bible. Uncanny.

 

[b_line]

So if Mormons believe parts of the Bible to be inaccurate, then why is it still considered a holy book? Also, how do you know which part is accurate and which isn't? Saying one part is inaccurate discredits the entire thing, IMO.

I think the word Mormons use is incomplete. It's not necessarily incorrect, as much as there are parts that they believe have been omitted through error or through purposeful removing to control a certain population.

The most important thing that you should understand based on what I am getting from your comments is that Mormons believe in what is in the bible, but they do not believe it to be a complete and final testament of Jesus Christ. In mormon teachings, the bible is as important as any of the other scripture like the Book of Mormon, modern prophets and apostles, etc.

 

[b_line]

As I have mentioned several times, works are a sign we are believers, but they do not make us believers.

As for baptism, you mentioned that it is required throughout the NT, but I have to ask you, was the man on the cross next to Jesus baptized? Again, we are not saved by our works but through grace. The Bible could not be more clear.

This might help in explaining the mormon position re works:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are:
1. Faith in the lord Jesus christ
2. Repentance.

If you have not faith, your repentance (works) is meaningless. It does not get you anywhere. To say that Mormons do not believe in grace is ignoring that the most basic tenet of Mormonism is faith in the lord and savior Jesus christ and his divine intervention and mission to redeem all of us from our fallen states. In my belief in the lds religion, faith has been the most important driving factor in following Christ. In my mind, this is no different than your belief in the grace of God.

 

[framer]

As I have mentioned several times, works are a sign we are believers, but they do not make us believers.

As for baptism, you mentioned that it is required throughout the NT, but I have to ask you, was the man on the cross next to Jesus baptized? Again, we are not saved by our works but through grace. The Bible could not be more clear.

Mormons can explain this. How do you reconcile that with:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In Mark 16:16 Jesus says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Seems pretty damn clear to me and trumps your anecdote. . .

 

[framer]

b-line is better at this than I am. He has the helm.

 

[LogGrad98]

I've never heard anyone give a good rebuttal to James 2 in regards to the whole faith vs works debate. It is as clear as can be and everyone I've been in aa discussionwith anyone they always say, in effect, "nuh uh" repeat that grace alone saves then skip the whole thing. I would be really interested in hearing someone's opinion of how you reconcile some so clearly written as James 2 with grace alone saves.

 

[BENTLEY]

I've never heard anyone give a good rebuttal to James 2 in regards to the whole faith vs works debate. It is as clear as can be and everyone I've been in aa discussionwith anyone they always say, in effect, "nuh uh" repeat that grace alone saves then skip the whole thing. I would be really interested in hearing someone's opinion of how you reconcile some so clearly written as James 2 with grace alone saves.

I mentioned James in one of my long posts - maybe it was too long to read - as the only spot in the Bible mormons cite to prove that we are saved by works, and not grace alone. But here's some Paul to contradict that:
Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So Paul here is explicit that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works (so we don't become prideful). We none of us can earn our salvation - it is a gift from God through faith. (he even mentions "good works" here, but not that we are saved by them - he's explicit that we are not saved by works)

So what about James? Doesn't James contradict this? Is this a Bible contradiction? This debate with mormons goes on endlessly. I explained it, I think PKM explained it too. I'll try again: James was addressing those Christians who'd gone too far in trusting they were saved by grace that they didn't do anything good for anyone - they didn't feed His sheep, as it were. And James was saying their faith was dead - they never really had faith because if they did have faith, works would follow. This is not in conflict with Paul but rather in each instance these apostles were addressing issues back in the early days of the church. So they stressed particulars specific to those people. These letters were written for them (firstly) so it's helpful to know the context, what was going on at the time. Get a Bible Study guide.

But it's important to stress, as Paul did many times, that our works can earn nothing but death. Our best deeds are as filthy rags. When His apostles called Jesus "good Rabbi" he replied to them "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." Luke 18:19, Mark 10:18. Even Jesus rejected them calling Him good - and if Jesus isn't good then we sure as hell aren't. This passage really struck me - that Jesus asked "why do you call Me good?" ...Huh? did I read that right? So why did He say this? Is it because He'd taken on the flesh, and since the flesh is corrupted, He rejected the idea of being called good? I'm not meaning to speculate - I think too many do speculate rather than study the Word - but I'm just sharing my surprise and wonder about this response from Jesus.

But He also said I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me. His name is the only name that will provide us passage into His presence. Not the name we were given in the Temple. You don't need to remember that one.

 

[UGLI baby]

I've never heard anyone give a good rebuttal to James 2 in regards to the whole faith vs works debate. It is as clear as can be and everyone I've been in aa discussionwith anyone they always say, in effect, "nuh uh" repeat that grace alone saves then skip the whole thing. I would be really interested in hearing someone's opinion of how you reconcile some so clearly written as James 2 with grace alone saves.

Saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ, if I've truly been saved and transformed into His likeness, then I am equipped for good works.

James 2 is talking about "Doing from your being" not, "being from your doing".

It is not what I do that affects my identity as a child of God (I've been adopted into sonship Romans 8:15-16), it's my identity as a child of God that should affect everything that I do.

PS: I'm in Nürnberg, Germany right now. It's amazing! Where do you live in Germany?

 

[The Thriller]

Mormons can explain this. How do you reconcile that with:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In Mark 16:16 Jesus says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Seems pretty damn clear to me and trumps your anecdote. . .

Simple.

Paradise and the Celestial Kingdom (Heaven) are two different things for Mormons.

After death but Prior to the final judgement one goes through a mini judgement phase dividing people into prison or paradise. Paradise is for those who demonstrated faith. Prison is for those who didn't demonstrate any faith or who had zero knowledge of opportunity to hear the gospel.

So if you're an evil doer Utah fan who spilled beer on Max Hall's mom, you're for sure going to prison. But alas, you might have an opportunity there to meet Mormon missionaries (complete with ties and name tags) teaching you the gospel. This will prepare you to accept the Mormon temple ordinances such as baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc.

If you refuse, then your progression is damned.

So in the book of Mark, he's referring to spiritual progression. If you have faith, continue to accept gospel ordinances (like baptism) and continue along the path then you're progressing. Those who reject Christ, reject his commandments, don't get baptized, act like classless Utah fans, etc their progression is then damned or stopped.

Hence, why Mormons practice their post death baptisms in temples thus solving the baptism dilemma. Why should someone who died without the opportunity to be baptized have their spiritual progression stopped or damned?

If those who lived before without any prior knowledge of the gospel died without any opportunity to hear about the gospel, they can be taught in spiritual prison and advance to paradise. If they choose to accept the baptism and other ordinances done in Mormon temples then they're scoring points that will look good for their report guard at the final judgement. I'm being kinda funny here, but theoretically, completing all of these ordinances aren't merely to receive a stamp on some spiritual report card. Theoretically, they're turning people into spiritual and faith filled people. Often times, people talk about their baptisms or competition of certain temple ordinances as being motivations into being better people. So IMO, if a dead person is hearing the gospel and accepting Christ into their lives in prison and accepts the baptism performed for them in a Mormon temple, they're probably turning into better people which will enable them to process to a higher kingdom of glory that they would not have otherwise progressed to.

At the final judgement everyone will be divided into 1 of 3 kingdoms or degrees of glory. Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial (Cor 15:40-42).

When Christ told the man dying alongside of him that he'd be in paradise it wasn't saying necessarily that he'd join them in heaven. But that he would be with him in paradise and not spiritual prison. Had the man been baptized before? Had the man even heard the gospel before? Who knows?

Hence, why Mormons may regard the bible as incomplete. What is known is that the sinner demonstrated faith in Christ which propelled him to paradise and not prison. Now is it enough to advance him to the highest degree of glory for the final judgement? Probably not. The additional factors need to be weighted in... Such as life circumstances, knowledge, whether or not temple ordinances are accepted, etc.

Something shady and unclear (in my studies at least) in Mormon doctrine is what the dead are doing right now. Many teachings demonstrate that there are missionary efforts underway in the spiritual world. People aren't just pulling a trout and fishing up in the clouds and enjoying themselves. Yes, you're free from physical labor (you have no physical body). But no, that doesn't mean that you aren't working in some spiritual capacity to improve upon your knowledge, attitude, and overall final report card. how that works? I'm not sure.

 

[LogGrad98]

I think the point is you can go too far in both directions and that is what both were getting at. Faith by itself is dead. Works cannot get you into heaven without faith. 2 sides of the same coin.

 

[colton]

Basically it has been translated over and over and over and over....and as a result man has made mistakes and small changes add on small changes...

Well, I'll disagree. That's commonly what is believed by LDS members due to the 8th article of faith but the word "translated" in Joseph Smith's time meant "conveyed" as much or more than it meant "rendered in a different language". See here: https://sorabji.com/1828/words/t/translate.html. So I think a more accurate way to look at the 8th article of faith is to say that we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it has been conveyed to us correctly. Errors that have crept in may be from a variety of reasons, not just due to changing languages.

You get the general idea. But Mormons believe in the bible and use it constantly in their teachings.

For example: Seminary. High school kids can attend a seminary class every school day for about an hour a day for 4 years. Every year they cover a Mormon text (Bible, Book Of Mormon, D&C). One year is the Old Testament and one year is the New Testament.

Good point. My experience has been that Mormons know the Bible much better than adherents to (pick random Christian religion here).