Question About Joseph Smith

[Gameface]

Was the guy a fraudster and scam artist before founding a major religion?

That's what I've heard and that's what I have believed. But I don't really know.

Disclaimer, even if it's not clear (that's really the best outcome I anticipate) it doesn't change my view that he never spoke to a supreme being.

 

[The Thriller]

Not that i know of.

He was 14 when he claimed to have had the first vision.

Although, aren't there different accounts or something? Colton?

Im pretty sure he was known as a pretty upstanding hard working religious farm boy growing up.

It's the stuff that comes after, like destroying the printing press, running for President, and marrying 14 year old girls without his wife's knowledge that makes things real bizarre. I know that sounds anti... But that stuff is just messed up to me and I don't recall it ever being explained in Sunday School

 

[LogGrad98]

Are you drunk?

 

[Gameface]

So you're not familiar with the accusations of money digging?

Like I really don't know anything here, but anytime I've looked into it I've heard about the money digging.

Hard working farm boy? Yeah, I'm not talking about the version the church sells, I'm talking about what non-LDS people think and hear about Joseph Smith.

 

[LogGrad98]

Ok. Wasn't sure. You normally don't go this mainstream inflammatory.


I have heard so many of these stories it is hard to tell what is the truth. I heard he ran full on scams and conned tons of people out of their money. I also heard that he simply was one of the chain letter forwarders of his day, believing in get rich quick schemes and working it from that angle, not anything purposely trying to scam people but rather believing that hey, I can forward this letter to my friends and they all send me a dollar and down the road I get a big payday. For what it is worth I have also read this kind of thinking ran rampant at that time, the gold rush fever, and he was far from the only person acting like this. It was really common.

I mean, he was a man. A human being. Humans are fallible. He probably got involved in some snake oil type stuff, and because of how strongly people felt about the mormons it gets blown all out of proportion. And at that time word of mouth was far stronger than media, and we know how rumors go.

Think about even as simple a thing as Obama. How many people will call him a muslim or a non-american or whatever for decades after his presidency is over. His detractors will always blow the bad things out of proportion and his supporters will blow the good things out of proportion. The truth always lies somewhere in between.

 

[The Thriller]

So you're not familiar with the accusations of money digging?

Like I really don't know anything here, but anytime I've looked into it I've heard about the money digging.

Hard working farm boy? Yeah, I'm not talking about the version the church sells, I'm talking about what non-LDS people think and hear about Joseph Smith.

Weren't there silver mines nearby?

Doesnt like everyone in the childhood go on treasure hunts?

All of these accusations from what I gather are pretty weak.

 

[colton]

Was the guy a fraudster and scam artist before founding a major religion?

That's what I've heard and that's what I have believed. But I don't really know.

I've read a lot of claims to that effect, but the evidence is very minimal. As you might expect, I don't believe it.

 

[colton]

Weren't there silver mines nearby?

Doesnt like everyone in the childhood go on treasure hunts?

All of these accusations from what I gather are pretty weak.

I don't know about silver mines, but that's my own reaction to the claims of him being a "money digger". So he went searching for buried treasure? So do a lot of kids.

 

[colton]

He was 14 when he claimed to have had the first vision.

Although, aren't there different accounts or something? Colton?

Yes, there are 4 or 5 different accounts that he wrote. I've read them all, and I've also read several accounts by people that related what he told them orally. They all agree in the fundamentals, but disagree on details. For example, in the canonical account (what we have in the Pearl of Great Price) he said that two personages appeared to him, God and Jesus. In some accounts he just said that God appeared to him and didn't mention Jesus. That type of thing doesn't really bother me; if I were to describe an experience that happened to me to different people and at different times I'd probably emphasize different aspects of the experience and maybe get some of the minor details mixed up.

Im pretty sure he was known as a pretty upstanding hard working religious farm boy growing up.

I agree. In fact, I remember reading an interview with one of his neighbors where the lady said something like "He was such a nice, hardworking, honest boy. It's a shame that he went off the deep end." (She didn't that colloquialism but that was the sentiment.) In other words, if he had never had mentioned visions/Book of Mormon/etc., she would have described him as a nice, hardworking, honest boy.

 

[Archie Moses]

Gameface either really enjoys trolling on any topic related to Mormons or has an extreme hate/dislike for them and is butthurt. Just telling it how it is.

 

[babe]

I don't know about silver mines, but that's my own reaction to the claims of him being a "money digger". So he went searching for buried treasure? So do a lot of kids.

He was actually hired to do that digging. Paid a minimal wage, say like a busboy at a café, did what he was told. Unless Game wants to entertain allegations about the staff at restaurants being con artists, that's about as far as that goes.

 

[babe]

Yes, there are 4 or 5 different accounts that he wrote. I've read them all, and I've also read several accounts by people that related what he told them orally. They all agree in the fundamentals, but disagree on details. For example, in the canonical account (what we have in the Pearl of Great Price) he said that two personages appeared to him, God and Jesus. In some accounts he just said that God appeared to him and didn't mention Jesus. That type of thing doesn't really bother me; if I were to describe an experience that happened to me to different people and at different times I'd probably emphasize different aspects of the experience and maybe get some of the minor details mixed up.



I agree. In fact, I remember reading an interview with one of his neighbors where the lady said something like "He was such a nice, hardworking, honest boy. It's a shame that he went off the deep end." (She didn't that colloquialism but that was the sentiment.) In other words, if he had never had mentioned visions/Book of Mormon/etc., she would have described him as a nice, hardworking, honest boy.

In the earlier accounts perhaps it was not the main point to teach a concept of the Godhead that would be unfamiliar to many folks. I agree that for the purpose of the account, an essay on the true nature of God might not have been the point.

 

[babe]

Weren't there silver mines nearby?

Doesnt like everyone in the childhood go on treasure hunts?

All of these accusations from what I gather are pretty weak.

Archaeologists and scavengers have found many silver articles in the mounds of the Ohio valley and adjacent areas, as well as amidst deep piles of old bones apparently left from some genocidal wars of long long ago. Lots of helmets, shields, rocks carved for a handhold useful in managing large boulders intended to crush skulls, lots and lots of arrowheads, spear points and such. Copper was much used as well, and there were some mines in the area. Most of the copper and silver seems to have come from a very abundant deposit in a peninsula of the Great Lakes. . . . I'm sure locals discovering these things started making up stories about the mysterious ancients. . . . but aside from some dusty academic works written in the 1800s in the libraries of New York, there's no great popular account of it all. . . .

 

[babe]

What is most remarkable is that Joseph Smith said an angel told him his name would be had for good and evil among every nation, kindred, and tongue of people. Pretty far-fetched tale, I'd say. Who'd 've thunk it would prove true.

 

[JAZZGASM]

I've read a lot of claims to that effect, but the evidence is very minimal. As you might expect, I don't believe it.

Except he was convicted for glass looking in upstate NY. He used a hat with special stones in it. He looked in the hat to find treasure. The case in question involved a farmer that Smith had conned. When asked if Smith conned him, the farmer said no because Smith told him the treasure was enchanted and kept going deeper as they dug down for it. (Similar story in the bom about enchanted treasure). According to the doc and church history, he received the the plates and urum and thummim after this. Quite a coincidence he translated the book that no one else saw the exact same way. Just sayin'.

 

[colton]

Except he was convicted for glass looking in upstate NY. He used a hat with special stones in it. He looked in the hat to find treasure. The case in question involved a farmer that Smith had conned. When asked if Smith conned him, the farmer said no because Smith told him the treasure was enchanted and kept going deeper as they dug down for it. (Similar story in the bom about enchanted treasure). According to the doc and church history, he received the the plates and urum and thummim after this. Quite a coincidence he translated the book that no one else saw the exact same way. Just sayin'.

I don't believe this is accurate. Do you have a reference?

 

[RJF]

With any religion: when you leave it, leave it alone. Along the same lines as live and let live.

 

[JAZZGASM]

I don't believe this is accurate. Do you have a reference?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system

Here is an overview. Google Joseph Smith and glass looking trial to find exerpts from the trial in 1826. JS also talks about the trial in the PoGP. The BOM was translated in 1829 using the same method Smith was convicted for in 1826 (using a hat with a magic device inside). Be was charged with the same crime again but he left for Ohio. Fascinating stuff.

 

[BENTLEY]

More Mormon Bashing sorry

If you want a source, Fawn Brodie's name has been smeared in Mormondom, but her work seemed pretty authentic to me. Being the niece of David O. Mckay she got access to the church's vault of records, which gave birth to her bio of Smith "No Man Knows My History." It all depends on if you're willing to know the unpleasant truth or if you prefer to believe the sanitized version.

There were books written about Smith while he was alive too. "Mormonism Unveiled" has been smeared by the church as quintessential anti-mormon, but it's chock full of affidavits of people from the Smith's neighborhood. Curious to hear what their neighbors had to say about them? The LDS church with one stroke just labels all these people as "anti." "Don't read it!"

Too many accusations of fraud, coupled with all the other stuff (kinderhook plates, kirtland bank scheme, the printing press, polygamy/polyandry, etc.) and yet many members dismiss it all so easily with broad labels.

you want another book?
BH Roberts "Studies of the Book of Mormon." This is BH Roberts, people. He's one of yours. But so was Brodie. I can understand not bothering with the crap written by some other Christian sect claiming mormons have horns, but the stuff written by actual mormons should give you pause. They have intimate knowledge of our lives as mormons, which bolsters their authenticity.

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, written by 34 year CES employee, Grant Palmer is a well written book that was written only a few years ago.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Colton, I don't mean to sound rude, but I can't ever imagine having God and Jesus appearing to you, and then calling it a minor detail of the account gets mixed up. I mean, that seems like a pretty major detail.