Repair idea for Hayward

[Siro]

where do I stand?

In 3rd place.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

Hayward was best when he sat behind Carrol. He is a bench player probably the 6th man on a good team. Lets face it he is now just a chucker and not at all clutch.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't deny that.
What I do deny is that hood and Burks would be unable to have games like the Atlanta game if defenses were gameplanning to stop them instead of Hayward.
It would be harder for them to have games like that but they would still be able to.
They are both good basketball players.

I agree here... its not like he is Steph Curry.

I did notice last night he drew Thabo who is a great defender. I would have zero issues with Hayward's game last night if he would hit one or two of those wide open threes... he was almost too open. I think it will come around.

Having Hayward, Burks, and Hood out there at the same time allows us a decent matchup to take advantage of... Hood got Korver (who isn't terrible) so Hood gets the rock last night.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Neto is not trash ...

He is not trash, but he is a third point guard level player. i think he develops into a good backup, but I also think his offensive deficiencies are effing up the starters a bit. Every pick and roll he runs is useless right now as the defender just drops under the pick. We need to start Trey... he's earned more playing time and is really staying in his lane. I don't think there is a big difference defensively between the two when you have Favs and Gobert helping out.

 

[Siro]

He is not trash, but he is a third point guard level player. i think he develops into a good backup, but I also think his offensive deficiencies are effing up the starters a bit. Every pick and roll he runs is useless right now as the defender just drops under the pick. We need to start Trey... he's earned more playing time and is really staying in his lane. I don't think there is a big difference defensively between the two when you have Favs and Gobert helping out.

I don't agree about starting Trey. That's be like losing half of our bench on the offensive end, since Neto would be completely pointless with the second unit.

 

[Diamond77]

Neto is not trash ...

Too early to give a definitive negative judgement on Neto and Pleiss. But at present they both appear as a "lost bet" made by Dennis Lindsey.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't agree about starting Trey. That's be like losing half of our bench on the offensive end, since Neto would be completely pointless with the second unit.

You don't have to play all bench players and all starters. You can mix them together so don't worry about losing half the bench.
Also, maybe neto is better playing against players closer to his talent level/ability (bench pg's)

I vote for starting trey

 

[Siro]

You don't have to play all bench players and all starters. You can mix them together so don't worry about losing half the bench.
Also, maybe neto is better playing against players closer to his talent level/ability (bench pg's)

I vote for starting trey

Neto's offensive game is non-existent. That won't change playing against bench players. With the starting unit, he can give you 15 minutes of very-low-usage, and good ball distribution, allowing vastly better scorers more looks. That way, Trey can play a chunk of his time with bench players, allowing him, a superior scorer, more looks and higher usage. Starting Trey means inferior ball distribution, defense, and diluted offensive output by every other starter. On top of that, those minutes where Burke would have been with the second unit are now taken by Neto, which largely neuters the second unit, putting the whole load on Burks (or whatever starter) happens to be playing.

It is a bad idea that would negatively impact the team's performance.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Neto's offensive game is non-existent. That won't change playing against bench players. With the starting unit, he can give you 15 minutes of very-low-usage, and good ball distribution, allowing vastly better scorers more looks. That way, Trey can play a chunk of his time with bench players, allowing him, a superior scorer, more looks and higher usage. Starting Trey means inferior ball distribution, defense, and diluted offensive output by every other starter. On top of that, those minutes where Burke would have been with the second unit are now taken by Neto, which largely neuters the second unit, putting the whole load on Burks (or whatever starter) happens to be playing.

It is a bad idea that would negatively impact the team's performance.

I wouldn't have Neto in the rotation. I'd go more three wing and use more Ingles and bump up both Hood and Burks minutes... they can both play more.

I think Alec and Hood have both proven that they can handle ball handling offense initiating duties. We are at our best in the three wing. Neto's minutes could be distributed fairly easily.

Neto would be fine if his non-offense didn't hurt the other guys he plays with, but his shooting combined with not having many floor spacers to start with is causing issues for the other guys.

 

[fishonjazz]

I wouldn't have Neto in the rotation. I'd go more three wing and use more Ingles and bump up both Hood and Burks minutes... they can both play more.

I think Alec and Hood have both proven that they can handle ball handling offense initiating duties. We are at our best in the three wing. Neto's minutes could be distributed fairly easily.

Neto would be fine if his non-offense didn't hurt the other guys he plays with, but his shooting combined with not having many floor spacers to start with is causing issues for the other guys.

Nailed it

 

[da ThRONe]

Neto's offensive game is non-existent. That won't change playing against bench players. With the starting unit, he can give you 15 minutes of very-low-usage, and good ball distribution, allowing vastly better scorers more looks. That way, Trey can play a chunk of his time with bench players, allowing him, a superior scorer, more looks and higher usage. Starting Trey means inferior ball distribution, defense, and diluted offensive output by every other starter. On top of that, those minutes where Burke would have been with the second unit are now taken by Neto, which largely neuters the second unit, putting the whole load on Burks (or whatever starter) happens to be playing.

It is a bad idea that would negatively impact the team's performance.

Still hating on Burke I see. The "inferior ball distribution" comment makes me wonder if you are watching the games. Trey has done a great job moving the ball. I said he had to prove he could hit shots before you saw an increase in his assist. The scouting report said let Trey shoot. Now he's making them teams are closing the gaps and Trey is making the right decisions and it showed against the Hawks.

I won't even get to the defensive complaint as Neto isn't stopping anybody( go watch Mo Williams during the Cavs game or Damian Lillard etc). What the hell is "diluted offensives output by every other starter". You think Burke on the court makes Hayward and Hood shoot even worse or make Gobert less of a factor on offense? Burke would provide spacing for all those guys spacing that your not getting from Neto(among other things). Trey aggressiveness will open the court for Hayward and Hood, he already has great chemistry with Favors in the pnr, and he's finding Gobert for easy basket at the rim. Starting Burke at this point seems like a no brainer.

 

[Siro]

I wouldn't have Neto in the rotation. I'd go more three wing and use more Ingles and bump up both Hood and Burks minutes... they can both play more.

I think Alec and Hood have both proven that they can handle ball handling offense initiating duties. We are at our best in the three wing. Neto's minutes could be distributed fairly easily.

Neto would be fine if his non-offense didn't hurt the other guys he plays with, but his shooting combined with not having many floor spacers to start with is causing issues for the other guys.

Yeah, that's an interesting idea. I'd like to see how that would work out.

 

[b_line]

Neto is not trash ...

ok, ok, he is garbage

 

[MT Steve]

You said Hayward drawing so much attention is the reason that hood and Burks can have games like last night.

Wrong. I said defenses not game-planning specifically to stop Burks and Hood allows them to have games like last night.

I also pointed out that Hayward helps others with the defensive attention he gets, but nowhere did I say what you are accusing me of saying.

 

[fishonjazz]

Wrong. I said defenses not game-planning specifically to stop Burks and Hood allows them to have games like last night.

Ya, I disagree.
I think that Burks and hood being good basketball players is what allows them to have good games.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Hayward hasn't hit his outside shots and teams know he can't pass on the interior, so he's an easy play right now. Has anyone seen Hayward make a lob pass? I can think of one. Last year, on a fast break, Hayward gets the ball on interior and throws the worst alley-oop pass you can think of, below the rim and fast. On pick an roll, big shows and retreats, maintaining verticality, while the wing follows while cutting off the bounce pass. Gobert isn't a good interior receiver of the ball, but is good enough with a high ball, but Hayward refuses to pass that way. Thus, Hayward's only options are try to essentially go against the double team, throw cross court skip pass to weak wing whose man is helping on either big roll man or big other man who's helping big roll man, or do that contorted jump pass to the safety valve wing on the wing.

There was a "what should each player work on" thread at the beginning of the last offseason. Not sure if I put "Hayward--learn to throw a lob pass" or not, but I thought it then and obviously think it still applies. Hood has shown he's willing to throw that lob pass, plus with his hesitation move gives him two ways to separate himself from the retreating, showing big that he can get better shots than Hayward does in the high pick and roll.

EDIT: One other option is to run pick and roll closer to the rim. Defenses playing that way would give Hayward a better shot. A 17-18 foot shot rather than a 20-22 foot shot that Snyder wouldn't ever want.

EDIT#2: I mean, look at Hayward's turnovers against the Hawks (https://on.nba.com/1H5jiNt). He just has no idea that Gobert needs the ball up. One time he seems to try is a bullet pass that zips past his head.

 

[MT Steve]

Ya, I disagree.
I think that Burks and hood being good basketball players is what allows them to have good games.

Sure they're good. So is Hayward. But Hayward is getting a lot more defensive attention, and hence, his efficiency has dipped. The same thing would happen to Burks or Hood if it was one of them instead.

If Burks and Hood continue to play well, defense's will eventually adjust, and Hayward will benefit. But he's being suffocated right now, and I don't think we should bitch about him just because his numbers have dipped. It's on other players to make the defense pay for suffocating Hayward, and against Atlanta, they did just that. Hope it continues.

 

[Getting Traded]

Neto is not garbage either. He's a young point guard who has good distribution skills and plays solid on-ball defense. He also has a good stroke and I think will become a dependable 3-point shooter. He's a rookie, so we need to give him time, and I think he will become at least a solid career backup.

Yes, Hayward is under pressure, but he also is not getting any calls despite that he's getting hammered continually. The pressure has gotten to him and he's pressing, which is why he's missing open shots.