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Donald Trump

Joe Bagadonuts said:
Thanks. I wasn't aware of all of these. No doubt that Trump's rhetoric deserves a lot of the blame. It still seems to me that the Trump protestors also deserve a lot of blame. If protesters were behaving in a similar manner at Democratic events I don't think it would go over well at all.
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If we put freedom of speech and assembly as paramount here, then we simply step back and allow all these ideas, hateful ones included, to play out in "the marketplace of ideas" and trust in the American people to reject the hateful ideas come November. I think that will happen, because the primary system is killing the GOP if the process selects a candidate that can not win for them in the general election.

As far as blame for events at rallies, the candidates can make a difference. Does anyone think Clinton does or would react to demonstrations with observations like "we used to take people like this out on stretchers" or "these are bad, bad people, folks"? There are protests at other rallies besides just Trump's, and I don't think you see the same degree of chaos breaking out.

But I remember the 68 election, and it was not a pretty sight. We got through it, and carried on. My concern is a Trump vs. Clinton choice is not really a recipe for healing divisiveness in this country. As that article on authoritarianism in the US pointed out, those gravitating toward the hateful aspects of Trump's message are still going to seek out spokesmen for their anger. Regardless of who wins in November.

I needed to be reminded. I was not there, but here is a glimpse of Chicago, 1968, the Democratic Convention:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aUKzSsVmnpY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=epxmX_58tOo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9OJnRnZjU

The preferred chant at that time was "the whole world is watching". Indeed they were, to see the convention center itself fill with tear gas from the riots outside. And the whole world is watching now too.
 
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jimmy eat jazz said:
Yep, I agree (multi-party systems have their flaws as well, and I'm by no means convinced they're better than a two-party system, e.g., the latter has historically tended to push national parties toward the center, while the former doesn't necessarily reward centrism). As for those arguing that we should avoid the blame game, my response is why? The problem cannot be fixed unless we, first, acknowledge the problem exists and, second, figure out what caused the problem. The Democrats didn't cause this problem, the Republicans did. It does absolutely no good for anyone wishing to restore balance, sanity, and a commitment to governing to our two party system to engage in, what essentially boils down to, "I'm know I'm bad but so are you," particularly when, as measured by degrees, the one is very much worse than the other at the present time. (Yes, Democrats and the Left has its share of unhinged dogmatists, but they are not controlling the party, as are the unhinged dogmatists among the Republicans and the Right.)

The suggestion that we should just avoid being open about where the blame lies here strikes me as a similar type of argument that, although racism exists and remains a significant social problem, we should just move on and avoid talking about it. Neither approach will lead to a true introspective reckoning or change.
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I guess my point is this. These is so much blame to lay at the feet of Rs and Ds over so many years than its pointless to me to try to determine which side might be worse. At this point they are both untrustworthy as groups and do not serve our continued support. They have failed us completely.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
Well, that's certainly a sub-text.

Yep, things ARE polarized, and one side bears the overwhelming responsibility for it. It's hardly childish to point out, and express concern, about the unqualified and dangerous proto - authoritarians and religious zealots the Republicans have put forward for the highest office in the land. Were the Republicans putting forward candidates of substance, interested in the messy process of governing, then things would be different. But they haven't so it isn't.

I believe strongly in the value of the two-party system, assuming both sides make a good faith effort to govern. No side has all the answers (up until only recently I've voted Republican almost as much as Democrat), but the scales have become unbalanced. To bring things back to balance, either the Republicans need to break free of the dominance their unhinged base has on the party, or it needs to blow the thing up and start again. The status guo is not sustainable; it will break eventually under the weight of the ideological inflexibility of the doctrinaire right. In my view, the sooner the better before more damage is done than later, when there is even greater potential for lasting damage.
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This is a favorite narrative of the left. "We are so reasonable and smart. If only the other side was also reasonable and smart and quit trying to block our agenda which goes contrary to their goals then we could get things done."
 
I never think it's a valid argument when faced with a criticism of clearly unacceptable behaviour to say that someone else's behaviour is also unacceptable.

Admit fault for the unacceptable behaviour and then having taken the high road, feel free to point out the unacceptable behaviour that exists on the other side. Using the "nobody is perfect" argument seems to me that either the person doesn't think their own behaviour is unacceptable and/or doesn't want to have to eliminate said behaviour, preferring to simply say that until everyone is perfect I'm not going to change.

Trump's behaviour is beyond the pale. Nothing anyone else is doing or has done excuses what he's doing now. Nothing.

I hope he is stopped.
 
So anyone hear that Ben Carson said he didn't want to endorse Trump but that none of the other candidates have a chance and Trump offered him a position in his administration in exchange for the endorsement? Ben Carson is kind of dumb.
 
Gameface said:
So anyone hear that Ben Carson said he didn't want to endorse Trump but that none of the other candidates have a chance and Trump offered him a position in his administration in exchange for the endorsement? Ben Carson is kind of dumb.
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Yeah. For a smart guy he's really stupid. I didn't hear him say this one, but given the things I have heard him say this wouldn't surprise me.
 
dalamon said:
the proof is in the pudding. The GOP is on the verge of collapse, while the Democrats show no signs of weakening. 2 party system is flawed-- but to consider the recent actions of those affiliated with the GOP as equal to those with the Dems doesn't really hold any water I'm afraid.

America is about to go 12 years without any Republican rule, I'm afraid.
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Yes the Dems are showing signs of weakening. Voters are registering as Independent in ever increasing numbers. Both Dems and Reps are losing loyal partisans.

As far as the Republicans being screwed: they went from Nixon & Ford to Ronald ****in Reagan. It is only going to take them one strong candidate to completely fix their image.
 
The Salt Lake City debate has been cancelled. Trump had other plans for the evening.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app
 
JazzGal said:
The Salt Lake City debate has been cancelled. Trump had other plans for the evening.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app
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Yeah an anti-Trump protest that is 99% white and lead by Mittens and Huntsman really doesn't play into his narrative very well.
 
Red said:
But I remember the 68 election, and it was not a pretty sight. We got through it, and carried on. My concern is a Trump vs. Clinton choice is not really a recipe for healing divisiveness in this country. As that article on authoritarianism in the US pointed out, those gravitating toward the hateful aspects of Trump's message are still going to seek out spokesmen for their anger. Regardless of who wins in November.

I needed to be reminded. I was not there, but here is a glimpse of Chicago, 1968, the Democratic Convention:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aUKzSsVmnpY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=epxmX_58tOo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9OJnRnZjU

The preferred chant at that time was "the whole world is watching". Indeed they were, to see the convention center itself fill with tear gas from the riots outside. And the whole world is watching now too.
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This actually makes me feel better. I was only 8 years old and have no recollection of this, but it is a bit reassuring to me that we can get past some pretty ugly stuff. We will again.
 
JazzGal said:
This actually makes me feel better. I was only 8 years old and have no recollection of this, but it is a bit reassuring to me that we can get past some pretty ugly stuff. We will again.
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Makes me feel better that way as well. Those were tumultuous times, between the Civil Rights movement, the war, assassinations, Watergate. Never a dull moment, that's for sure. We'll figure it out....
 
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