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BYU - it's time come out of the dark ages.

Not necessarily, didn't someone (you?) post that most rapists are repeat offenders? Or was that just one situation? Those are some sobering statistics though.
Wasn't me but that would make more sense. Hell, I would have to start being suspicious of anyone and everyone if 1 in 8 men are rapists. That's just crazy. Hopefully it's a lot less than 1 in 8 men that are rapists and what you said about most rapists being repeat offenders is true.
 
Interesting and sobering statistics. For all of you who have sons, please do your best to raise them with the idea that women are people too.
 
So it seems like everyone in this thread agrees that the honor code should not be scaring women from reporting rapes and that the honor code and byu should not look to punish a victim of rape.

Im curious if [MENTION=422]jazzman12[/MENTION], [MENTION=181]Broncster[/MENTION], @alt13 (hey hey) etc agree with green about never letting a daughter attend byu.
If you were raising a daughter and she wanted to go to byu because they had a great program in the specific category that she wanted to study and she worked her butt off and got a scholarship offer to byu and wanted to attend would you guys try to stop her because you were afraid for her safety at byu?

I'm a father not a dictator.

That being said, I doubt it's something that would ever come up. I would be surprised if my daughter chose to go to BYU over another school.
 
https://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened

I hope this is not a standard practice. If it is, their policies really need to be re-evaluated. An Honor Code hearing should never have priority over a criminal case. EDIT: It says further in the article that the prosecutor is not aware of other cases like this.

Prosecutors say Brigham Young University is jeopardizing a pending rape prosecution because the school refuses to delay its Honor Code case against the alleged victim.

Deputy Utah County Attorney Craig Johnson brought charges against the woman's alleged attacker and said he implored school officials to consider that their Honor Code investigation of her conduct would further victimize her. He asked them to postpone their investigation until the conclusion of the trial, originally planned for next month.

He said they declined, and have barred the student from registering for future classes until she complies with the school's investigation.

That could make it difficult for her to stay in Utah and participate in the rape case, Johnson said.

"When we have a victim that is going to be revictimized any time she talks about the rape — it's unfortunate that BYU is holding her schooling hostage until she comes to meet with them," Johnson said. "And we, as prosecutors, prefer she doesn't meet with them."

The Honor Code probe began after a Utah County sheriff's deputy, a friend of the accused attacker, gave BYU a copy of the police case file. Johnson said he has stressed to school officials that the file is "paperwork that lawfully they shouldn't have."

Prosecutors charged the rape defendant and the deputy with retaliating against a witness, but the cases have since been dismissed.

The 19-year-old woman reported to Provo police that she was raped in her off-campus apartment by a man last September. About two months later, court records said, she was contacted by staff at the BYU Honor Code and Title IX offices, who told her they were given a copy of the police case file. Campus Title IX offices are charged with enforcing a federal law that guarantees students don't face hostility on campus based on their sex.

Information in the file — which included at least 20 pages of detailed statements and a report on her sexual assault medical exam — implicated the woman in violations of BYU's Honor Code, according to court records. The code is a catalog of rules, such as a dress code, a ban on alcohol and other prohibitions for students at the private school, owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The woman was asked to participate in the school's evaluation of her actions. Johnson and the student's attorney, Liesel LeCates, both said school lawyers rebuffed their requests to suspend their process in the interest of the criminal case.

LeCates said the school's attorneys claimed Honor Code action must be taken right away to comply with federal law. LeCates acknowledged Title IX calls for swift action, but said that to use the federal provision against a crime victim in BYU's Honor Code process "goes against the legislative intent of Title IX."

"The reason that exists is to keep perpetrators from staying on campus ... when criminal proceedings can take years," LeCates said. Instead, she said BYU is "taking that and using it against [a victim]."

The Tribune generally does not name victims of sexual assault.

University spokeswoman Carri Jenkins said Thursday that Title IX allows for universities to delay an investigation "while the police are gathering evidence in a related criminal case." But she could not comment on the woman's case or why no delay was granted after Johnson's request.

She emphasized that a Title IX investigation is separate and independent from the Honor Code process, and that a student would "never be referred to the Honor Code office for being a victim of sexual assault."

But multiple BYU students investigated by the school's Honor Code Office have disagreed, saying they were scrutinized as a result of reporting a sex crime.
 
1/3 of men would rape somebody if they knew they wouldn't get caught?

The hell is wrong with people? Was that just Utah or nation wide? That's just awful. Why would you even want sex with somebody who doesn't want it?
 
The real issue that is being pushed to the forefront is: If my daughter were to attend BYU and she was sexually assaulted, are they going to treat her like the victim, or the violator?

It doesn't take a ton of common sense to see that if indeed sexual assault victims are being punished after reporting these crimes, it's going to create a culture of fear amongst BYU female students to come forward, and in turn, it will only embolden the perpatrators of these awful crimes to continue to do so.

If you're a guy who's perfectly fine sending your daughter to BYU, I guess that's where we differ as fathers. Rape can happen on any campus but I'm going to try and steer my daughter clear of attending an institution that fosters an environment making sexual assault victims apprehensive about reporting the crime out of fear that they themselves will be treated like the criminal.

This. But BYU and BYU fan is great at deflecting the real issue and this turns into a pathetic attack on me.

It shocking and disgusting.
 
Jazzgal posted a story above of how BYU has a habit of blaming the victim in rape cases. That is the issue. If the University of Utah does this as well then that is a problem as well.

Take off your blue goggles and try to look at the issue. Woman who are sexually assaulted at BYU are treated like it is their fault. That treatment can lead to more rapes going unreported. Which leads to victims not getting help and criminals not being punished.

Let's talk about the issue here, and it is the honor code standing in the way of sexual assault victims from getting help.

The Prodigal Son teaches us that even though the law says and eye for an eye, sometimes the circumstances warrant the we don't drag sinners (say a girl who did acid then was raped) further through the mud when their experiences were more punishment that they should have ever experienced.

The un-Christlike responses in defending an institution and that institution's response is disgusting.
 
1/3 of men would rape somebody if they knew they wouldn't get caught?

The hell is wrong with people? Was that just Utah or nation wide? That's just awful. Why would you even want sex with somebody who doesn't want it?
Nation wide. And yes, alarming.
 
This. But BYU and BYU fan is great at deflecting the real issue and this turns into a pathetic attack on me.

It shocking and disgusting.

Jazzgal posted a story above of how BYU has a habit of blaming the victim in rape cases. That is the issue. If the University of Utah does this as well then that is a problem as well.

Take off your blue goggles and try to look at the issue. Woman who are sexually assaulted at BYU are treated like it is their fault. That treatment can lead to more rapes going unreported. Which leads to victims not getting help and criminals not being punished.

Let's talk about the issue here, and it is the honor code standing in the way of sexual assault victims from getting help.

The Prodigal Son teaches us that even though the law says and eye for an eye, sometimes the circumstances warrant the we don't drag sinners (say a girl who did acid then was raped) further through the mud when their experiences were more punishment that they should have ever experienced.

The un-Christlike responses in defending an institution and that institution's response is disgusting.


It turned that way due to the comments green made that byu has a culture of fear (I'm finding out that all universities have a culture of fear apparently), that byu let's rapists run free (as if byu is finding rapists and high fiving them and then turning the other cheek and letting them go) and that he wouldnt let his daughter attend byu because it's too scary.



I think some of us just have an issue with green trying to paint byu as a bad place that you shouldn't let your daughters attend due to the culture of fear at byu and the fact that byu allows rapists to go free.

.
 
But BYU and BYU fan is great at deflecting the real issue a



Take off your blue goggles

Where are my blue goggles in the following words I posted? Where is the deflection in the following words I posted.

Every byu fan that posted in this thread has said that what is happening at byu with the honor code is wrong.

So it seems like everyone in this thread agrees that the honor code should not be scaring women from reporting rapes and that the honor code and byu should not look to punish a victim of rape.



Everyone has discussed the issue of the honor code punishing victims of rape and often making them not want to report it cause they don't want to be punished for their honor code violations. Everyone single one of us has said that is wrong and needs to change iirc.



Look green I agree that the honor code sucks. I agree that there are some women that are not reporting rapes because they fear of being punished for honor code violations and that is wrong.
 
I want to float a hypothetical scenario. (Note this is not what I believe is happening in the heavily discussed case.)

Let's say that female BYU student decides to violate the Honor Code by drinking at an off-campus party. Let's say some other BYU students recognize the female student and after a few days decide to report the Honor Code violation.

But it turns out later that night out mostly drunk female student is raped at the party by a man.

The next morning the female student goes to the hospital and reports the rape. All the normal police procedures follow.

So the female student is a victim of rape but she also clearly violated the Honor Code by choosing to drink alcohol.

What is correct response?


There are multiple witnesses to a Honor Code violation who have reported it independently. Under normal circumstances the female student would be required to speak the honor code office and agree to a HC probation plan. Or she would be suspended from registering for classes. Or possibly expelled.

In this case, she refuses to speak to honor code office. She has good reasons and the local prosecutor tells the Honor Code to back off.


So does the fact she was a victim of rape, mean that all other accountability must be delayed until the conclusion of the criminal prosecution of her rapist? Where is a reasonable limit?


I believe the Honor Code is not legal obligated to listen to the DA. BYU does have to obey title IX but the Honor Code office has no information about the rape.

Obviously, the rape victim would feel like the Honor Code office unfairly pressuring her.

My point is there are a bunch of really difficult situations that may arise.
 
I want to float a hypothetical scenario. (Note this is not what I believe is happening in the heavily discussed case.)

Let's say that female BYU student decides to violate the Honor Code by drinking at an off-campus party. Let's say some other BYU students recognize the female student and after a few days decide to report the Honor Code violation.

But it turns out later that night out mostly drunk female student is raped at the party by a man.

The next morning the female student goes to the hospital and reports the rape. All the normal police procedures follow.

So the female student is a victim of rape but she also clearly violated the Honor Code by choosing to drink alcohol.

What is correct response?


There are multiple witnesses to a Honor Code violation who have reported it independently. Under normal circumstances the female student would be required to speak the honor code office and agree to a HC probation plan. Or she would be suspended from registering for classes. Or possibly expelled.

In this case, she refuses to speak to honor code office. She has good reasons and the local prosecutor tells the Honor Code to back off.


So does the fact she was a victim of rape, mean that all other accountability must be delayed until the conclusion of the criminal prosecution of her rapist? Where is a reasonable limit?


I believe the Honor Code is not legal obligated to listen to the DA. BYU does have to obey title IX but the Honor Code office has no information about the rape.

Obviously, the rape victim would feel like the Honor Code office unfairly pressuring her.

My point is there are a bunch of really difficult situations that may arise.
Hypothetical? Lemme guess... you're the girl in this story.
 
I want to float a hypothetical scenario. (Note this is not what I believe is happening in the heavily discussed case.)

Let's say that female BYU student decides to violate the Honor Code by drinking at an off-campus party. Let's say some other BYU students recognize the female student and after a few days decide to report the Honor Code violation.

But it turns out later that night out mostly drunk female student is raped at the party by a man.

The next morning the female student goes to the hospital and reports the rape. All the normal police procedures follow.

So the female student is a victim of rape but she also clearly violated the Honor Code by choosing to drink alcohol.

What is correct response?


There are multiple witnesses to a Honor Code violation who have reported it independently. Under normal circumstances the female student would be required to speak the honor code office and agree to a HC probation plan. Or she would be suspended from registering for classes. Or possibly expelled.

In this case, she refuses to speak to honor code office. She has good reasons and the local prosecutor tells the Honor Code to back off.


So does the fact she was a victim of rape, mean that all other accountability must be delayed until the conclusion of the criminal prosecution of her rapist? Where is a reasonable limit?


I believe the Honor Code is not legal obligated to listen to the DA. BYU does have to obey title IX but the Honor Code office has no information about the rape.

Obviously, the rape victim would feel like the Honor Code office unfairly pressuring her.

My point is there are a bunch of really difficult situations that may arise.

So the Honor Code Office wants to put a priority on the fact that she drank alcohol over the criminal rape case?

First, if the information was reported independently to the Honor Code Office then I think they have every right to do whatever it is that an Honor Code Office does. But!!! They should hold off on doing that until her rape case is settled. They shouldn't demand testimony that could compromise a rape case for a non-criminal alcohol consumption case.

Second, if the police or the title IX office forwarded the Honor Code Office information about a rape victim violating the Honor Code Office should disregard that information and inform the source that it's not appropriate for them to be passing information about the victim of rape outside the criminal proceedings.

No difficult situations have arisen.
 
Qman brings up an interesting point. Things could be more complicated in certain scenarios. I think that so far everyone in this thread believes that if a girl is raped and also broke the honor code then the honor code should maybe look the other way in that instance since a woman was raped. I mean to punish her further for violating the honor code would just be piling on right? That doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

On the other hand... lets say that the honor code looks the other way in scenarios when a woman is raped and also violating the honor code. Could a situation arise where a woman is out drinking, gets turned into/busted by the honor code for drinking and then claims she was raped (when she really wasn't) as a way to avoid getting punished for her honor code violation cause she knows that the honor code has looked the other way in previous instances when a woman was raped so they might look the other way in her case too? I dont know if that would ever happen and maybe the chances of a girl lying about rape to avoid punishment for honor code violations are so small that it shouldn't effect anything and there shouldn't even be a discussion about it. I lean that way and in conclusion think that the honor code should in fact look the other way in a situation where a girl gets raped. Its just too much to have to deal with being violated and then also possibly get kicked out of school or whatever on top of everything else.
 
Qman brings up an interesting point. Things could be more complicated in certain scenarios. I think that so far everyone in this thread believes that if a girl is raped and also broke the honor code then the honor code should maybe look the other way in that instance since a woman was raped. I mean to punish her further for violating the honor code would just be piling on right? That doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

On the other hand... lets say that the honor code looks the other way in scenarios when a woman is raped and also violating the honor code. Could a situation arise where a woman is out drinking, gets turned into/busted by the honor code for drinking and then claims she was raped (when she really wasn't) as a way to avoid getting punished for her honor code violation cause she knows that the honor code has looked the other way in previous instances when a woman was raped so they might look the other way in her case too? I dont know if that would ever happen and maybe the chances of a girl lying about rape to avoid punishment for honor code violations are so small that it shouldn't effect anything and there shouldn't even be a discussion about it. I lean that way and in conclusion think that the honor code should in fact look the other way in a situation where a girl gets raped. Its just too much to have to deal with being violated and then also possibly get kicked out of school or whatever on top of everything else.


I don't think the Honor Code Office needs to look the other way necessarily. I think they need to prioritize honor code violations in a way that has some connection to reality. Rape is a very serious crime typically committed by a repeat offender. The victims of rape suffer life-long consequences regardless of what punishment the perpetrator may or may not be subjected to. The priority needs to be getting women to report rape and stopping rapists as soon as possible, before there are a half-dozen more victims. Women must be able to come forward without fear of retaliation or hostility from their university, the title IX office or the police.

BYU is choosing to prioritize the Honor Code above protecting victims of rape. There really isn't some greater good they are serving by insisting that rape victims face Honor Code investigations immediately, as though they are preventing some sort of damage by making sure to address drinking, curfew violations, being alone with a member of the opposite sex before letting the criminal case be settled.

So what if someone get's away with violating the honor code? Seriously. I'm not saying BYU shouldn't have an honor code, or that they should allow students to scoff at those standards, but to use rape victims coming forward as a way to expose honor code violations that otherwise would have gone unnoticed is really dumb. It is a form of victim blaming, no question. It is making a clear statement that you got raped because you didn't follow the honor code and we're gonna punish you for putting yourself in a situation where a rape happened.

Like I said, if there is independant information of the honor code violations then sure, follow up on that after the rape case has been settled, or not at all. It isn't like it's some kind of god damn tragedy that someone "got away" with drinking or being out too late. The idea that you would make it more likely that a single rapist gets away with it so that you can hold a rape victim accountable for a trivial non-criminal offense is absurd.

Stopping one rapist is more valuable than preventing one million honor code violations. If anyone doesn't agree with that then I think they're pretty ****ing dumb as far as this subject is concerned.

Fish, I really appreciate your objective approach to this issue. I think you've been very reasonable and I think that as an expectant father of a daughter you've shown a lot of concern for the issue of rape, so please don't take this post as an attack on you, because it's not at all directed at you.
 
I don't think the Honor Code Office needs to look the other way necessarily. I think they need to prioritize honor code violations in a way that has some connection to reality. Rape is a very serious crime typically committed by a repeat offender. The victims of rape suffer life-long consequences regardless of what punishment the perpetrator may or may not be subjected to. The priority needs to be getting women to report rape and stopping rapists as soon as possible, before there are a half-dozen more victims. Women must be able to come forward without fear of retaliation or hostility from their university, the title IX office or the police.

BYU is choosing to prioritize the Honor Code above protecting victims of rape. There really isn't some greater good they are serving by insisting that rape victims face Honor Code investigations immediately, as though they are preventing some sort of damage by making sure to address drinking, curfew violations, being alone with a member of the opposite sex before letting the criminal case be settled.

So what if someone get's away with violating the honor code? Seriously. I'm not saying BYU shouldn't have an honor code, or that they should allow students to scoff at those standards, but to use rape victims coming forward as a way to expose honor code violations that otherwise would have gone unnoticed is really dumb. It is a form of victim blaming, no question. It is making a clear statement that you got raped because you didn't follow the honor code and we're gonna punish you for putting yourself in a situation where a rape happened.

Like I said, if there is independant information of the honor code violations then sure, follow up on that after the rape case has been settled, or not at all. It isn't like it's some kind of god damn tragedy that someone "got away" with drinking or being out too late. The idea that you would make it more likely that a single rapist gets away with it so that you can hold a rape victim accountable for a trivial non-criminal offense is absurd.

Stopping one rapist is more valuable than preventing one million honor code violations. If anyone doesn't agree with that then I think they're pretty ****ing dumb as far as this subject is concerned.

Fish, I really appreciate your objective approach to this issue. I think you've been very reasonable and I think that as an expectant father of a daughter you've shown a lot of concern for the issue of rape, so please don't take this post as an attack on you, because it's not at all directed at you.

I agree with you. It seems like you and i both kind of think that when a woman is raped at byu and she was breaking the honor code it would be pretty dumb to punish her for her honor code violation. Thats like kicking someone when they are down. And we both agree that drinking or doing drugs or whatever is not a big deal when compared with rape. I could see someone making an argument that if the honor code decided to treat rape cases like we think they should (basically leave the poor girl alone as it pertains to drinking some alcohol or whatever) that it could lead to false rape accusations in order to get out of trouble with the honor code. I dont think that would happen btw but im sure there are some who might think that could happen. someone could argue that looking the other way for honor code violations for any reason, including rape, could lead to a slippery slope with the honor code and the consistency at which they inforce the honor code and when they dont.
Having said that, im pretty certain that there is already inconsistency in how the honor code is inforced. Im sure that athletes probably dont have to obey the rules as much as someone else does and things like that so imo its perfectly reasonable, understandable, and preferable to be honest, that the honor code look the other way for rape victims.
In your post you talked about maybe delaying the honor code investigation but i actually disagree with that. Delaying it isn't even good enough. I mean if someone was raped and wait a year later and then kick them out of school for breaking the honor code while they were raped (drinking as an example), I still think that is messed up. Just cause they waited a year doesn't make it ok to make them go through more pain from that night all over again a year later by being kicked out of school. Does what posted make sense?
 
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