Never Trump

[JimLes]

Also, is it me, but does the term "moderate" have two different and distinct meanings depending on whether the person using it to describe themselves generally votes Republican or Democratic?

If you're a Democrat, it seems to mean "My views broadly align with whatever the general public believes right now, though I sure as hell didn't have most of these views 10 or even five years ago."

If you're a Republican, it seems to mean "My views broadly align with whatever the general public believed in 15-20 years ago."

 

[Stoked]

I know we're all televisually trained to think we're seeing off-script/unprecedented stuff, but there really isn't much to see here. Hillary has a clear road to the White House -- after the masses are entertained by more of the best televisual electoral stunts evar. And, from many different perspectives, a Hillary presidency won't be very different from Bill, W, or Obama's.

And I have a big problem with that.

 

[Stoked]

aint multiple parties dope? I'm telling y'all. The best thing that could come out of this election is y'all moving away from the oligarchic 2-party gridlock. It hurts to think that I have to mention the benefits of having more than two parties competing.

Hallelujah!

 

[NAOS]

And I have a big problem with that.

good.

And, if so, you should be feeling the Bern about now.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

As a life-long moderate Republican who will never vote for Donald Trump, nor Clinton/Sanders, I'm now considering my options. Barring a third party run by someone like Romney or Bloomberg, I'm thinking maybe Gary Johnson. Does anyone know much about him? Anyone else I should consider?

Voting for anyone but Trump will be the same as voting for Hillary, though. I think a lot of republicans feel this way, which is why Hillary is going to be the next president.

 

[Deleted member 848]

remember those political compass things we did?

I guess you can compare where you scored with this graph.

 

[b_line]

remember those political compass things we did?

I guess you can compare where you scored with this graph.

I didn't do it, how do I find it?

Also, that seems like bernie is a little farther right than the perception.

 

[NAOS]

Also, that seems like bernie is a little farther right than the perception.

Hmmmmm.... I wonder why that incorrect public perception exists and persists???

 

[colton]

Voting for anyone but Trump will be the same as voting for Hillary, though.

I disagree with this assessment. In the grand scheme of things, a single vote is NEVER going to make the different in a presidential election. It's statistically impossible. So for me, on an individual basis, it's far more important to vote for someone in good conscience (so that I can live with myself) than to take the view that I need to vote for someone I really dislike in order to prevent someone I dislike more from winning.

 

[NAOS]

I disagree with this assessment. In the grand scheme of things, a single vote is NEVER going to make the different in a presidential election. It's statistically impossible. So for me, on an individual basis, it's far more important to vote for someone in good conscience (so that I can live with myself) than to take the view that I need to vote for someone I really dislike in order to prevent someone I dislike more from winning.

that sounds a bit too self-involved for my tastes. Also, it doesn't alter Cappy's point one bit.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I suspect that for many republicans the unwillingness to vote for Hillary, even given that they are repulsed by Trump, owes as much to knee-jerk tribal loyalty than to anything Hillary has done or possibly will do. She's very much an establishment candidate, right of center on some issues, progressive on others, but far from a flaming liberal (as was Obama, although owing to the epidemic of Obama derangement syndrome sweeping the country, many on the right were blinded to this fact). As a progressive myself, I find Hillary too militaristic for my tastes and not nearly progressive enough (her complicity in the smearing of her husband's female accusers, in a very un-feminist way still leaves a bad taste in my mouth)and more of a bandwagon progressive than a committed, principled one.

I see this election as the ultimate test of the power of tribalism relative to one's true devotion to country. Trump is a dumpster fire, and his presidency portents all sorts of very horrible outcomes for this country, while Hillary is a center-right-left depending on issue establishment candidate, who will likely govern as such. Do Republicans vote their tribe, or do they vote their country? It will be very interesting to observe.

 

[Stoked]

I suspect that for many republicans the unwillingness to vote for Hillary, even given that they are repulsed by Trump, owes as much to knee-jerk tribal loyalty than to anything Hillary has done or possibly will do. She's very much an establishment candidate, right of center on some issues, progressive on others, but far from a flaming liberal (as was Obama, although owing to the epidemic of Obama derangement syndrome sweeping the country, many on the right were blinded to this fact). As a progressive myself, I find Hillary too militaristic for my tastes and not nearly progressive enough (her complicity in the smearing of her husband's female accusers, in a very un-feminist way still leaves a bad taste in my mouth)and more of a bandwagon progressive than a committed, principled one.

I see this election as the ultimate test of the power of tribalism relative to one's true devotion to country. Trump is a dumpster fire, and his presidency portents all sorts of very horrible outcomes for this country, while Hillary is a center-right-left depending on issue establishment candidate, who will likely govern as such. Do Republicans vote their tribe, or do they vote their country? It will be very interesting to observe.

I reject the notion that voting for Hillary is voting for my country.

 

[colton]

that sounds a bit too self-involved for my tastes. Also, it doesn't alter Cappy's point one bit.

Self-involved would be thinking that my vote would actually be the deciding factor, no?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Yes, with Hillary (and with Trump, frankly) it's at least as much a personality/character thing for me as it is a policy thing. I won't get into all of my issues with Hillary but let's just say my dislike of her started with Travelgate and her disdain for stay-at-home mothers (I don't have time to look up the quote right now), and hasn't gotten any better since then with the more recent Bengazi and email scandals, and possible corruption involving the Clinton foundation.

As far as policies go, Trump and Hillary are roughly equidistant from my own views. If someone put a gun to my head and made me vote for one of the two, I'd pick Hillary, though. Her personality/character is less horrible than Trump's (in my opinion) and I at least know what her policies will be, which I can't say about Trump. Trump is much more the classic demagogue and who knows what he would do if he were to obtain power.

Would you have voted for Cruz? I believe I could probably take Hillary's comment about stay at home moms and raise you with a number of egregious quotes from Cruz or probably also Rubio. On a personality issue, while Hillary may be distasteful, Cruz is an absolutely horrible human being who has no friends and no allies, because he's such a douche bag, and a religious bigot to boot (p.s. I doubt he has a big love of Mormons, and probably routinely says unkind things about them to his associates). In the world of politics with all of the compromised and unpleasant people populating it, here's this guy whom everyone hates. Would that have kept you from voting for him?

Honestly, that seems like a rather thin thing to hang one's vote on.

Other than a personal dislike for Hillary, what are her policy positions that you disagree with?

 

[fishonjazz]

Voting for anyone but Trump will be the same as voting for Hillary, though. I think a lot of republicans feel this way, which is why Hillary is going to be the next president.

Good
#nevertrump.
If there is only evil available then I hope we go with the lesser evil.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I reject the notion that voting for Hillary is voting for my country.

You think the country is better off with Trump as President than Hillary?

Let me say as well, that I should clarify that my frame of reference are people who believe country would be worse off with Trump as president, but who as loyal Republicans, just can't get themselves to vote for Hillary or abstain.

 

[Stoked]

I believe she wins and handily. And that is going to lead to some HUGE meltdowns in my area lol.

 

[Stoked]

You think the country is better off with Trump as President than Hillary?

Let me say as well, that I should clarify that my frame of reference are people who believe country would be worse off with Trump as president, but who as loyal Republicans, just can't get themselves to vote for Hillary or abstain.

I think the country is better off without either of them. I don't see either of them as good for us or the country.

Voting what you consider to be the lesser evil in is not voting for the country.

 

[NAOS]

Self-involved would be thinking that my vote would actually be the deciding factor, no?

that would me MORE self-involved. That doesn't preclude my thoughts that your position is still too self-involved.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I think the country is better off without either of them. I don't see either of them as good for us or the country.

Voting what you consider to be the lesser evil in is not voting for the country.

It is if you believe the worse evil is truly, truly bad. If it's a coin toss, then perhaps no biggie, but if one alternative is, say, Donald Trump, then doing anything to help him win IS is harming your country.

For those Republicans who see Trump as such a bad thing for this country, which I think is many Republicans, if they vote for him in any case, to me this IS evidence that they put their party/tribal loyalty ahead of the well-being of the country.