Trade Gordo + Trey for the #3?

[orangello]

People realize the #3 isn't much better this year than the #12, right? Like at all. This is such an easy no, it's absurd.

I think the answer is that there are some that do know and don't care, some that just don't know, and some that need to get their head examined.


Oh, and then there are some that do understand that but they seem to be very quiet right now. Maybe they are unicorns!

 

[orangello]

Would buddy, isiah thomas, jae crowder be better than hayward burke and #12 pick, is the question that should be asked.
I don't know but definitely possible.
(If we are talking about trading Hayward, #12, burke for #3, Thomas, crowder. Which is what I thought was a proposed trade)

I definitely don't trade Hayward and burke for #3. Unless of course you are quite certain he will leave after next year no matter what.

The Jazz shouldn't dilute their talent pool. You can only play 5 guys at a time. Hayward is the best player in that trade scenario. The #3 could be better, but have you heard the saying that a bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush?

 

[fishonjazz]

The Jazz shouldn't dilute their talent pool. You can only play 5 guys at a time. Hayward is the best player in that trade scenario. The #3 could be better, but have you heard the saying that a bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush?

And if hayward leaves after next year?

Is thomas, buddy, and crowder better than burke and #12?

I think Thomas is close to as good as hayward, #3 will be better than #12, and crowder is much better than burke.

Depth matters too and imo none of those players are stars so until we get one we might as well try to get one. (Maybe #3 turns out to be a star)

I would do that trade (The one with Thomas, crowder and burke involved) but I understand and can see why you wouldn't.

I doubt Boston would do it anyway. I think they really like Thomas and crowder both and probably think there is someone good at #3.

 

[orangello]

One other thing that seems to be lost in all this talk is the uniqueness of Dante. Please name for me all the PG's in NBA history that are 6'6", amazingly quick and showed to be a top level defensive player in their rookie season at PG.

That list is very short.

 

[orangello]

And if hayward leaves after next year?

Is thomas, buddy, and crowder better than burke and #12?

I think Thomas is close to as good as hayward, #3 will be better than #12, and crowder is much better than burke.

Depth matters too and imo none of those players are stars so until we get one we might as well try to get one. (Maybe #3 turns out to be a star)

I would do that trade (The one with Thomas, crowder and burke involved) but I understand and can see why you wouldn't.

I doubt Boston would do it anyway. I think they really like Thomas and crowder both and probably think there is someone good at #3.

First of all, you need to understand that I am an optimist. There is no way around that for me.

With that being said, I think all this talk about Hayward leaving is overblown. Ultimately, Hayward will want the money and if the Jazz are willing to offer him the full max (I think they will), then he'll stay. Last time was different. The Jazz knew they had the ability to match anything and so they were willing to let him set his market value. I think this time he'll be their first call and no one will be able to beat the money offer.

Also, we know that Hayward isn't a dumb player. He sees what is being developed here. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Jazz had one less injury this season that they would have made the playoffs. How many teams can say that 4 of their top 6 players lost a minimum a full month of the season and 2 of them lost more than half the season. If that happened to any team in the NBA then they would struggle to make the playoffs.

**Rant completed**

 

[fishonjazz]

First of all, you need to understand that I am an optimist. There is no way around that for me.

With that being said, I think all this talk about Hayward leaving is overblown. Ultimately, Hayward will want the money and if the Jazz are willing to offer him the full max (I think they will), then he'll stay. Last time was different. The Jazz knew they had the ability to match anything and so they were willing to let him set his market value. I think this time he'll be their first call and no one will be able to beat the money offer.

Also, we know that Hayward isn't a dumb player. He sees what is being developed here. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Jazz had one less injury this season that they would have made the playoffs. How many teams can say that 4 of their top 6 players lost a minimum a full month of the season and 2 of them lost more than half the season. If that happened to any team in the NBA then they would struggle to make the playoffs.

**Rant completed**

I understand all that. Even if I know hayward is staying I still do the trade.
Normally I wouldn't want to do a trade where we give up the best player but in this case the best player is not a star and not irreplaceable.
I think hayward > thomas, #3>>#12, and crowder >>> burke.
Then you add in the fact that Haywards contract is going to be enormous.
I do that math and come to the conclusion that I do the trade.

Not even taking into account the risk of hayward leaving.

 

[orangello]

I understand all that. Even if I know hayward is staying I still do the trade.
Normally I wouldn't want to do a trade where we give up the best player but in this case the best player is not a star and not irreplaceable.
I think hayward > thomas, #3>>#12, and crowder >>> burke.
Then you add in the fact that Haywards contract is going to be enormous.
I do that math and come to the conclusion that I do the trade.

Not even taking into account the risk of hayward leaving.

I guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think Hayward is as close to a star as the Jazz can get their hands on without giving away every good asset they have.

 

[fishonjazz]

In that trade we would lose haywards 19.7 points per game in 36 minutes. Thomas averaged 22.2 points per game in 32 minutes. (Plus the scoring of buddy, and we would have hood and Burks still for scoring too) So I think we would be ok making up his scoring.

Gordon is a great defender however. So a combo of crowders defense (really good defender) and exums defense coming back (possibly elite) I think we would be ok there.

Minutes and rotations might be an issue but being an optimist I figure it would work out somehow.

 

[fishonjazz]

I guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

I agree with this part. As for the second part of your post (hayward being the best we can get without giving up tons of assets), how many assets did we give up for karl, stockton, d-will, boozer, even big al (all allstars)?

We could get a better player via the draft or free agency without giving up tons of assets. We have done it before.
I don't know the likelyhood of it but it definitely can be done.

Hell we might have a better player than hayward currently on the roster that has not reached their potential yet.

Hayward is not an irreplaceable star player imo. (That's where that fundamental difference of opinion comes in)

 

[mellow]

Great questions....do the Jazz want to compete for the 7 or 8 seed or do they want to hit reset (again) on the rebuild?

I think Rodney and Gobert make resetting possible, but I don't know if I personally or the fan base collectively can endure another season of rebuilding.

 

[fishonjazz]

One other thing that seems to be lost in all this talk is the uniqueness of Dante. Please name for me all the PG's in NBA history that are 6'6", amazingly quick and showed to be a top level defensive player in their rookie season at PG.


That list is very short.

People said similar things about guys like bargnani (#1 pick) and darko. I love the optimism but there is another side to the coin.

There is a chance that there are more dudes like that than you realize but they played against top college level talent and their lack of offense was exposed and then they never got drafted.

Exum was aided in his draft position and nba stature by playing against Australian high schoolers, having a few good games vs good American high schoolers, and having really good measurables.

I hope he turns out to be our star someday. So far I don't have much actual basketball footage of him being a star. Which isn't such a bad thing since he was so young and raw during his rookie year. He was expected to struggle yet the team did well with him starting and he played fantastic defense. Gonna need to be a big time scorer though to be a star I think. Hopefully he has that in him.
The summer league game I was at last year was really really encouraging.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Great questions....do the Jazz want to compete for the 7 or 8 seed or do they want to hit reset (again) on the rebuild?

I think Rodney and Gobert make resetting possible, but I don't know if I personally or the fan base collectively can endure another season of rebuilding.

If we got just a reshuffling of the deck chairs in a Hayward deal I'd be upset. If we did well like minny did when trading Love I think we'd all be okay. I could handle another lotto season if we got Ingram and had a potential star.

If LA would offer two for Hayward if be in... If it was #3 from Boston then I'd rather have the other BKN picks than crowder or Thomas... They would likely not give either of those guys because the whole point of them acquiring Hayward would be to compete and win now and they would want to keep as many win now pieces as possible.

 

[fishonjazz]

Great questions....do the Jazz want to compete for the 7 or 8 seed or do they want to hit reset (again) on the rebuild?

I think Rodney and Gobert make resetting possible, but I don't know if I personally or the fan base collectively can endure another season of rebuilding.

Hayward for #3 pick is horrible trade for us imo and no way in hell would I do it.
Celtics would need to give up more. The trade would need lots of changes to it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There is a chance that there are more dudes like that than you realize but they played against top college level talent and their lack of offense was exposed and then they never got drafted.

Exum was aided in his draft position and nba stature by playing against Australian high schoolers, having a few good games vs good American high schoolers, and having really good measurables.

I hope he turns out to be our star someday. So far I don't have much actual basketball footage of him being a star. Which isn't such a bad thing since he was so young and raw during his rookie year. He was expected to struggle yet the team did well with him starting and he played fantastic defense. Gonna need to be a big time scorer though to be a star I think. Hopefully he has that in him.
The summer league game I was at last year was really really encouraging.

Or the fact that the idea of him is so unique that maybe it doesn't work.

I like Dante but those saying he can do this and that are complete guesses. He's a really good defender... We know nothing else other than he has some good physical tools and the idea of what he could bring could be special.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Hayward for #3 pick is horrible trade for us imo and no way in hell would I do it.
Celtics would need to give up more. The trade would need lots of changes to it.

Agree... I just think the trading of Hayward would be acknowledgement that the current core is not championship quality and we should hunt for stars through draft picks. I'd try to take as many A+ draft assets as possible.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Would buddy, isiah thomas, jae crowder be better than hayward burke and #12 pick, is the question that should be asked.
I don't know but definitely possible.
(If we are talking about trading Hayward, #12, burke for #3, Thomas, crowder. Which is what I thought was a proposed trade)

I definitely don't trade Hayward and burke for #3. Unless of course you are quite certain he will leave after next year no matter what.

No, I don't think they would better than what we give up.

 

[fishonjazz]

If we got just a reshuffling of the deck chairs in a Hayward deal I'd be upset.

I wouldn't be upset but i wouldn't be jumping for joy either.
I think crowder, Thomas and #3 pick makes us better than hayward, #12, and burke does. But maybe only a couple of games better. If the goal is to win more games then I think you do a trade like that (Plus don't have to max Hayward and don't have to worry about him leaving next year).
A very meh type trade.

However maybe DL thinks there is a player that will be available after the 2nd pick that will be a star. (I know allot of people on jazzfanz don't think so but we have all been wrong before) If that's what DL believed then hopefully he would make a trade like that.

 

[fishonjazz]

No, I don't think they would better than what we give up.

Fair enough

 

[orangello]

Or the fact that the idea of him is so unique that maybe it doesn't work.

I like Dante but those saying he can do this and that are complete guesses. He's a really good defender... We know nothing else other than he has some good physical tools and the idea of what he could bring could be special.

I completely agree with you. I HOPE that he can be aggressive and open things up offensively but all we know now is that he is an above average defender at PG and that would have been a MAJOR help this year.

 

[mellow]

Boston has embraced Thomas. He isn't going anywhere....yet.

I think Boston ultimately moves the pick,but I pity the team that dares dance with Danny.

Brooklyn is still paying for their brief whirl with the Celtics GM.