Never Trump
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fishonjazz
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Can't stand butt tats tho. Let the booty shine on its own.
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Red
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It's almost a crime to follow that with the subject at hand, but, if the thought ever crossed your mind that maybe Donald Trump was a very, very, very sick man, this article may put that thought front and center. Where, I honestly believe, it belongs. By far the most "nailed it" examination of Trump I've read to date. I believe this has been staring us in the face ever since he descended that escalator in Trump Tower and announced his intent. I have to assume this will seem over the top to his supporters here, but I believe it lays him bare.
It's a long piece. I want to excerpt the whole darn thing, it's as good as it gets if you're at all worried that we might be about to elect a truly unstable personality. But below is but a snippet. And yeah, I know the other option has her own deserving thread, but friends, this man is very, very, very sick.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-north-patterson/too-sick-to-lead-the-leth_b_10086768.html
..."But there is nothing more “current” or important than Donald Trump’s psychological fitness to be president. All the hyperventilation of the media - parsing his “positions”, pontificating on his” strategy” and intuition- is a poisonous form of the “political correctness” he otherwise deplores, normalizing the abnormal by shoehorning him into the usual analytic boxes. And what it yields is, in great part, rubbish.
There is only one organizing principle which makes sense of his wildly oscillating utterances and behavior - the clinical definition of narcissistic personality disorder.
The Mayo Clinic describes it as “a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.” This is bad enough in selecting a spouse or a friend. But when applied to a prospective president, the symptoms are disqualifying.
With Trump ever in mind, try these. An exaggerated sense of self-importance. An unwarranted belief in your own superiority. A preoccupation with fantasies of your own success, power and brilliance. A craving for constant admiration. A consuming sense of entitlement. An expectation of special favors and unquestioning compliance.
A penchant for exploiting or disparaging others. A total inability to recognize the needs of anyone else. An incapacity to see those you meet as separate human beings. An unreasoning fury at people you perceive as thwarting your wishes or desires. A tendency to act on impulse. A superficial charm deployed to disguise a gift for manipulation.
A need to always be right. A refusal to acknowledge error. An inability to tolerate criticism or critics. A compulsion to conform your ever - shifting sense of “reality” to satisfy your inner requirements . A tendency to lie so frequently and routinely that objective truth loses all meaning.
A belief that you are above the rules. An array of inconsistent statements and behaviors driven by your needs in the moment. An inability to assess the consequences of your actions in new or complex situations. In sum, a total incapacity to separate the world from your own psychodrama.
Recognize anyone?
Then how, his admirers say, do you account for Trump’s “success” in building a business and branding his persona? That’s simple enough: in some areas of life, at least to a point, narcissism and self-aggrandizement serve success. All that is required is a certain intelligence and a sense of how a lack of behavioral constraints can overwhelm more normal folk.
Thus Donald Trump. If your life’s work is building hotels and casinos, this pathology can work for you -especially if your dad has started you out with a few million dollars in chips. You can bully subcontractors, sue your enemies, and bury your misjudgments in a slew of bankruptcies and self-glorification. You can make Trump University sound like Harvard. You can use the media to create your own reality and sell it to the credulous. You can leverage your money to make your own rules.
The annals of business are filled with such people, some of whom wind up in jail, others of whom die rich. But however puissant they become in their chosen realm, their sickness of mind and spirit cannot ruin a country. That power is reserved for presidents.
Indeed, Trump’s rise simply swells his unwarranted belief that he can stride the world like a colossus- naked of judgment, knowledge, temperament or preparation. This reflects a fatal deficit in those who suffer this disorder - they cannot see themselves as they are.
To the contrary, their grandiosity is a defense against feelings of inadequacy too deep and painful to acknowledge. By the consensus of mental health experts, this emotional impairment has a last fatal ingredient - there is no cure. For a man like Donald Trump, life offers no lessons, no path forward save to continue as you have until, like Icarus, you fly too close to the sun.
This disability involves far more than a set of discrete character flaws, however grave, including those which suggest a lack of trustworthiness. We survived the dishonesty and paranoia of Richard Nixon, after all, albeit at considerable cost and only after forcing him from office.
But in many ways Nixon was well - equipped for the presidency, capable of navigating the larger world and understanding complex situations and people - as in China and its leaders. He did not reflexively substitute a grossly inflated sense of self for knowledge, strategy or preparation. His tragedy, and ours, was that his crippling inner wounds outstripped his proven strengths.
Donald Trump is altogether different -and infinitely more dangerous. He is afflicted with a comprehensive and profound character disorder which leaves no corner of his psyche whole. And this dictates - and explains - every aspect of his behavior."
..."Which brings us to a central problem of Trump’s warped psychology - he believes that filling the presidency requires nothing but the wonder of himself. This gives the lie to GOP’s most craven rationalization of its own capitulation: that a suddenly docile Trump will, as president, defer to a cadre of wise and experienced advisors drawn from the party establishment.
This is pernicious nonsense. Consistent with his character disorder, Trump proudly insists that his chief advisor is himself. Even were he so inclined, in order to learn from others he must know enough to discern good advice from bad. But such is his pathology that he feels no need to learn much of anything from anyone. And so, from the beginning, he has plunged us down the bottomless rabbit hole of his intellectual emptiness.".....
It's a long piece. I want to excerpt the whole darn thing, it's as good as it gets if you're at all worried that we might be about to elect a truly unstable personality. But below is but a snippet. And yeah, I know the other option has her own deserving thread, but friends, this man is very, very, very sick.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-north-patterson/too-sick-to-lead-the-leth_b_10086768.html
..."But there is nothing more “current” or important than Donald Trump’s psychological fitness to be president. All the hyperventilation of the media - parsing his “positions”, pontificating on his” strategy” and intuition- is a poisonous form of the “political correctness” he otherwise deplores, normalizing the abnormal by shoehorning him into the usual analytic boxes. And what it yields is, in great part, rubbish.
There is only one organizing principle which makes sense of his wildly oscillating utterances and behavior - the clinical definition of narcissistic personality disorder.
The Mayo Clinic describes it as “a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.” This is bad enough in selecting a spouse or a friend. But when applied to a prospective president, the symptoms are disqualifying.
With Trump ever in mind, try these. An exaggerated sense of self-importance. An unwarranted belief in your own superiority. A preoccupation with fantasies of your own success, power and brilliance. A craving for constant admiration. A consuming sense of entitlement. An expectation of special favors and unquestioning compliance.
A penchant for exploiting or disparaging others. A total inability to recognize the needs of anyone else. An incapacity to see those you meet as separate human beings. An unreasoning fury at people you perceive as thwarting your wishes or desires. A tendency to act on impulse. A superficial charm deployed to disguise a gift for manipulation.
A need to always be right. A refusal to acknowledge error. An inability to tolerate criticism or critics. A compulsion to conform your ever - shifting sense of “reality” to satisfy your inner requirements . A tendency to lie so frequently and routinely that objective truth loses all meaning.
A belief that you are above the rules. An array of inconsistent statements and behaviors driven by your needs in the moment. An inability to assess the consequences of your actions in new or complex situations. In sum, a total incapacity to separate the world from your own psychodrama.
Recognize anyone?
Then how, his admirers say, do you account for Trump’s “success” in building a business and branding his persona? That’s simple enough: in some areas of life, at least to a point, narcissism and self-aggrandizement serve success. All that is required is a certain intelligence and a sense of how a lack of behavioral constraints can overwhelm more normal folk.
Thus Donald Trump. If your life’s work is building hotels and casinos, this pathology can work for you -especially if your dad has started you out with a few million dollars in chips. You can bully subcontractors, sue your enemies, and bury your misjudgments in a slew of bankruptcies and self-glorification. You can make Trump University sound like Harvard. You can use the media to create your own reality and sell it to the credulous. You can leverage your money to make your own rules.
The annals of business are filled with such people, some of whom wind up in jail, others of whom die rich. But however puissant they become in their chosen realm, their sickness of mind and spirit cannot ruin a country. That power is reserved for presidents.
Indeed, Trump’s rise simply swells his unwarranted belief that he can stride the world like a colossus- naked of judgment, knowledge, temperament or preparation. This reflects a fatal deficit in those who suffer this disorder - they cannot see themselves as they are.
To the contrary, their grandiosity is a defense against feelings of inadequacy too deep and painful to acknowledge. By the consensus of mental health experts, this emotional impairment has a last fatal ingredient - there is no cure. For a man like Donald Trump, life offers no lessons, no path forward save to continue as you have until, like Icarus, you fly too close to the sun.
This disability involves far more than a set of discrete character flaws, however grave, including those which suggest a lack of trustworthiness. We survived the dishonesty and paranoia of Richard Nixon, after all, albeit at considerable cost and only after forcing him from office.
But in many ways Nixon was well - equipped for the presidency, capable of navigating the larger world and understanding complex situations and people - as in China and its leaders. He did not reflexively substitute a grossly inflated sense of self for knowledge, strategy or preparation. His tragedy, and ours, was that his crippling inner wounds outstripped his proven strengths.
Donald Trump is altogether different -and infinitely more dangerous. He is afflicted with a comprehensive and profound character disorder which leaves no corner of his psyche whole. And this dictates - and explains - every aspect of his behavior."
..."Which brings us to a central problem of Trump’s warped psychology - he believes that filling the presidency requires nothing but the wonder of himself. This gives the lie to GOP’s most craven rationalization of its own capitulation: that a suddenly docile Trump will, as president, defer to a cadre of wise and experienced advisors drawn from the party establishment.
This is pernicious nonsense. Consistent with his character disorder, Trump proudly insists that his chief advisor is himself. Even were he so inclined, in order to learn from others he must know enough to discern good advice from bad. But such is his pathology that he feels no need to learn much of anything from anyone. And so, from the beginning, he has plunged us down the bottomless rabbit hole of his intellectual emptiness.".....
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fishonjazz
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How about tats of butts?
Red
Well-Known Member
It's interesting how I stumbled upon the above article. I was watching the nightly news, and there was Trump once again lashing out at the judge in the Trump University case. And I know mere sound bites can always mislead, but as I'm watching his expressions and listening, I found myself asking "is it possible this guy is actually mentally ill?" So I went to google news and queried "is Donald Trump mentally ill?"
The above article was at the top, and indicating I had already been to the page, but it was clear I had not read it in it's entirety. Glad I did, and hope it opens eyes. I often ask myself, as a student of history, how many people recognize the nuts they sometimes allow to ascend to power? How many people recognize what's happening while it's happening? I believe it's often quite the minority. Anyway, reading the above brought it all together for me. I realize now just how sick this man is, and as the end of that article shows, shame on the media for enabling him, over, and over, and over. I don't know if Clinton would be worse. But I don't think she has the personality disorder this guy does. Good luck, America. Good luck.
The above article was at the top, and indicating I had already been to the page, but it was clear I had not read it in it's entirety. Glad I did, and hope it opens eyes. I often ask myself, as a student of history, how many people recognize the nuts they sometimes allow to ascend to power? How many people recognize what's happening while it's happening? I believe it's often quite the minority. Anyway, reading the above brought it all together for me. I realize now just how sick this man is, and as the end of that article shows, shame on the media for enabling him, over, and over, and over. I don't know if Clinton would be worse. But I don't think she has the personality disorder this guy does. Good luck, America. Good luck.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Wow. Do most men have rape fantasies like this? I have never had a fantasy or desire like that in my life.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Lol. I just googled "Obama Narcissist". Surprise, surprise. Lots of very compelling information. I'll bet I would find similar quality info if I googled "Obama Genius". And yes, I think both those titles accurately apply to both of those men.
Red
Well-Known Member
History was my subject, and I spent many years in it's study. It's a vast subject of course. I wanted to know what a study of history could tell me about human nature. I was lucky, very lucky, to learn a few valuable lessons. One in particular seemed particularly valuable, a general observation that seemed well worth remembering, the kind of thing that, if remembered by many, could prevent the mistakes history is so known for, the reason we say understand history or be doomed to repeat it. And that simple lesson was: Evil is banal, and can pass unrecognized it it's own time. Of course, I'm hardly the first or only student of History to recognize the truth in that observation. I thought of that lesson the first week Trump declared, but did not want to dwell on it. Surely, everything he said, the personality he displayed, was a cynical ruse designed to simply win those primaries?
Maybe. Or maybe it's our turn to hand the reigns of power over to an unstable nut. Maybe it's our turn to forget the lessons of history.
Until yesterday, I had never heard of Richard North Peterson. But I thank him for being one of the few so far to zero right in, and spell out, eloquently, and in no uncertain terms, what is before us. Tell it like it is, Mr. Peterson:
"So how have we fallen prey to a man who, by the damning evidence of his own behavior, is psychologically unfit to be president? When did boasting top coherence; mindless posturing become strength; a talent for ridicule supplant experience or judgement; a gift for scapegoating surpass wisdom or generosity? Why must we even contemplate someone with this stunted inner landscape as the world’s most powerful man?
Much of the answer lies in a failure of our institutions - governmental, economic, political and social - to maintain our trust. This has bred a popular flailing born of frustration and despair: the desire to tear down those structures which, all too many feel, have betrayed us. We can see it in the refusal of Trump’s followers to accept any criticism of their leader; see it, too, in the cadre of Sanders supporters who insist that electing Trump will unleash the chaos from which revolution springs. For all too many, anger has drowned reason.
But two institutions deserve special condemnation.
First, the Republican Party. For too long it fed the GOP’s middle and working class base easy scapegoats - Washington, minorities - while the Paul Ryans of the party contravened its voters’ interests: pushing free trade, reduced entitlements, and tax cuts for the rich. Trump is what happened to the party when its electorate spat this pablum out.
Even more contemptible is the party’s embrace of Trump. For we have reached, as David Brooks wrote, the GOP’s “McCarthy moment” - a turning point when concern for country should override grubby pragmatism. Except this reckoning is even more pressing - Joe McCarthy was not running for president; Donald Trump is. We cannot - must not - invest him with this power.
Beyond peradventure, Trump’s incapacities transcend issues or ideology, or the most vehement objections to the policies or persona of Hillary Clinton. It is one thing to preserve the party by fighting for its congressional candidates. But by pretending that Trump is fit to be president, the Republican Party has become the political and moral equivalent of a criminally callous auto manufacturer, willing to sell cars with defective airbags and exploding gas tanks.
Worse. For they are not selling us combustible cars; they are selling out the country. It is hard to put a name to their dishonor.
But, with honorable exceptions, the broadcast media has been even more shameful and complicit. Worst of all is cable news -in pursuit of revenue and ratings, they have given Trump $3 billion in free advertising, feeding his candidacy - and his ego - by spreading the mythology of his imperviousness and power.
Wallowing in self interest, they have shrunk from saying what must be said: that Trump is unfit for higher office. Instead, they have breathlessly parsed his every move as if he were something grander, yet more normal, than a mentally disordered demagogue bereft of principles and starved for adulation.
Only lately have a few talking heads begun to notice, with perplexity and wonder, that Trump’s behavior is, well, kind of strange. Really? They have countenanced lie upon lie; recast his disturbed behavior as strategic genius; marveled at the immunity from his own vacuity and vulgarity that they have helped create. Even more than Trump himself, they have thrust “Trump” upon a confused and vulnerable country. By doing so, have disgraced themselves and betrayed their obligations to the rest of us.
One thinks of Edward R Murrow’s admonition when so many of his peers in television cowered before Joseph McCarthy :” This instrument can teach, it can illuminate, and even inspire, but only if humans go to the extent to use it. Otherwise it is merely wires and a box.” Or, now, something worse - a tool of disinformation and intellectual and moral degradation, turned over to a dangerously unbalanced man for whom this is the essence of his nature.
The Republican Party is beyond redemption. The media have five months left. Let them use it well."
---------------------
One of the hardest things a person can do is extract oneself from one's own time and place, the better to see what usually only the passage of time can reveal, what usually only History can reveal. None of us can do such a thing perfectly; we are the products of a particular time and place in History. But to the extent one can, the ability to see clearly what is really going on does improve. I highly recommend such an exercise.....
Maybe. Or maybe it's our turn to hand the reigns of power over to an unstable nut. Maybe it's our turn to forget the lessons of history.
Until yesterday, I had never heard of Richard North Peterson. But I thank him for being one of the few so far to zero right in, and spell out, eloquently, and in no uncertain terms, what is before us. Tell it like it is, Mr. Peterson:
"So how have we fallen prey to a man who, by the damning evidence of his own behavior, is psychologically unfit to be president? When did boasting top coherence; mindless posturing become strength; a talent for ridicule supplant experience or judgement; a gift for scapegoating surpass wisdom or generosity? Why must we even contemplate someone with this stunted inner landscape as the world’s most powerful man?
Much of the answer lies in a failure of our institutions - governmental, economic, political and social - to maintain our trust. This has bred a popular flailing born of frustration and despair: the desire to tear down those structures which, all too many feel, have betrayed us. We can see it in the refusal of Trump’s followers to accept any criticism of their leader; see it, too, in the cadre of Sanders supporters who insist that electing Trump will unleash the chaos from which revolution springs. For all too many, anger has drowned reason.
But two institutions deserve special condemnation.
First, the Republican Party. For too long it fed the GOP’s middle and working class base easy scapegoats - Washington, minorities - while the Paul Ryans of the party contravened its voters’ interests: pushing free trade, reduced entitlements, and tax cuts for the rich. Trump is what happened to the party when its electorate spat this pablum out.
Even more contemptible is the party’s embrace of Trump. For we have reached, as David Brooks wrote, the GOP’s “McCarthy moment” - a turning point when concern for country should override grubby pragmatism. Except this reckoning is even more pressing - Joe McCarthy was not running for president; Donald Trump is. We cannot - must not - invest him with this power.
Beyond peradventure, Trump’s incapacities transcend issues or ideology, or the most vehement objections to the policies or persona of Hillary Clinton. It is one thing to preserve the party by fighting for its congressional candidates. But by pretending that Trump is fit to be president, the Republican Party has become the political and moral equivalent of a criminally callous auto manufacturer, willing to sell cars with defective airbags and exploding gas tanks.
Worse. For they are not selling us combustible cars; they are selling out the country. It is hard to put a name to their dishonor.
But, with honorable exceptions, the broadcast media has been even more shameful and complicit. Worst of all is cable news -in pursuit of revenue and ratings, they have given Trump $3 billion in free advertising, feeding his candidacy - and his ego - by spreading the mythology of his imperviousness and power.
Wallowing in self interest, they have shrunk from saying what must be said: that Trump is unfit for higher office. Instead, they have breathlessly parsed his every move as if he were something grander, yet more normal, than a mentally disordered demagogue bereft of principles and starved for adulation.
Only lately have a few talking heads begun to notice, with perplexity and wonder, that Trump’s behavior is, well, kind of strange. Really? They have countenanced lie upon lie; recast his disturbed behavior as strategic genius; marveled at the immunity from his own vacuity and vulgarity that they have helped create. Even more than Trump himself, they have thrust “Trump” upon a confused and vulnerable country. By doing so, have disgraced themselves and betrayed their obligations to the rest of us.
One thinks of Edward R Murrow’s admonition when so many of his peers in television cowered before Joseph McCarthy :” This instrument can teach, it can illuminate, and even inspire, but only if humans go to the extent to use it. Otherwise it is merely wires and a box.” Or, now, something worse - a tool of disinformation and intellectual and moral degradation, turned over to a dangerously unbalanced man for whom this is the essence of his nature.
The Republican Party is beyond redemption. The media have five months left. Let them use it well."
---------------------
One of the hardest things a person can do is extract oneself from one's own time and place, the better to see what usually only the passage of time can reveal, what usually only History can reveal. None of us can do such a thing perfectly; we are the products of a particular time and place in History. But to the extent one can, the ability to see clearly what is really going on does improve. I highly recommend such an exercise.....
fishonjazz
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Anger. That is how. He taped into peoples anger and continually stokes it. As long as they are angry they don't think. Lot's of anger across the board in this country lately. It's been slowly building.
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Red
Well-Known Member
The following are groups of people from whom no judge can ever sit to consider the legality of any action taken by a prospective President Trump:
Judges with any Hispanic heritage: this by proclamation from candidate Trump. This one is a given.
Judges of Muslim faith: as of Monday, this too by proclamation from candidate Trump. This one is a given.
Female judges: his numerous insults to women preclude any female judge from considering any case involving decisions made by a President Trump.
African American judges: his suggestion that a male black member of "Black Lives Matter" "maybe he deserved to be roughed up", and his refusal to immediately disavow support from David Duke is likely enough to preclude any black judge from sitting in any case involving decisions made by a President Trump.
Judges with physical handicaps: Trump's mocking at one of his rallies of a reporter with a physical disability precludes any judge with physical handicaps from being able to hear fairly any case involving decisions made by a President Trump.
So, at the very least, no Hispanic, Muslim, female, black, or handicapped judge can ever be allowed to be part of any judicial action involving a President Trump.
As of Monday, in a conference call to his surrogates, Trump ordered his surrogates to continue to lambast the judge in the Trump University cases, and, if reporters continued to question the wisdom of Trumps remarks, the surrogates should, regarding members of the press "tell them they are racists and go get'em!"
Judges with any Hispanic heritage: this by proclamation from candidate Trump. This one is a given.
Judges of Muslim faith: as of Monday, this too by proclamation from candidate Trump. This one is a given.
Female judges: his numerous insults to women preclude any female judge from considering any case involving decisions made by a President Trump.
African American judges: his suggestion that a male black member of "Black Lives Matter" "maybe he deserved to be roughed up", and his refusal to immediately disavow support from David Duke is likely enough to preclude any black judge from sitting in any case involving decisions made by a President Trump.
Judges with physical handicaps: Trump's mocking at one of his rallies of a reporter with a physical disability precludes any judge with physical handicaps from being able to hear fairly any case involving decisions made by a President Trump.
So, at the very least, no Hispanic, Muslim, female, black, or handicapped judge can ever be allowed to be part of any judicial action involving a President Trump.
As of Monday, in a conference call to his surrogates, Trump ordered his surrogates to continue to lambast the judge in the Trump University cases, and, if reporters continued to question the wisdom of Trumps remarks, the surrogates should, regarding members of the press "tell them they are racists and go get'em!"
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
No, he's much more inclusive than that. He likes anybody who agrees with him.
He's completely lost me over the judge thing. In the past when he has said stupid things he's moderated them when given time to reflect. This time he's gone the opposite direction.
He has already proven otherwise. he has openly questioned anyones ability that is "Mexican", "muslim" or a "woman" as stated above. His inclusion is a farce. Not to mention the repeated actions of his alienating and belittling minorities.
Actions speak louder than words.
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♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Let's give Johnson Utah's 6 electors
If you support Johnson you should be voting for him anyway but here are two reasons to vote for him that have little to do with him as a candidate. More cynical reasons or perhaps strategic reasons to support him.
1) Deny Donald
Trump has huge hurdles to win the election. The electoral map is simply not in his favor. If he loses Utah the path to 270 seems impossible.
2) Deny Hilary
If Clinton were to win Utah she would have the largest mandate to govern since Reagan. Let's not give her that.
Johnson's most recent poll numbers for Utah show him with 16% support, Trump 29%, Clinton 26%
https://reason.com/blog/2016/06/07/gary-johnson-polls-16-in-utah
If you support Johnson you should be voting for him anyway but here are two reasons to vote for him that have little to do with him as a candidate. More cynical reasons or perhaps strategic reasons to support him.
1) Deny Donald
Trump has huge hurdles to win the election. The electoral map is simply not in his favor. If he loses Utah the path to 270 seems impossible.
2) Deny Hilary
If Clinton were to win Utah she would have the largest mandate to govern since Reagan. Let's not give her that.
Johnson's most recent poll numbers for Utah show him with 16% support, Trump 29%, Clinton 26%
https://reason.com/blog/2016/06/07/gary-johnson-polls-16-in-utah
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
If he had a Mexican judge who agreed with him he never would have brought this up.