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Move On From Hayward?

#bern said:
If he scores at a good efficiency, why complain?
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I wouldn't.
Imo. He doesn't

That's my main problem with him.
The way he scores it isn't really possible to be efficient. He scores in too difficult of ways.
 
#bern said:
The idea of teammates getting mad bc he's shooting more is silly too...
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Did someone say that his teammates would get mad at him? Where did you get that one from?
 
fishonjazz said:
I wouldn't.
Imo. He doesn't

That's my main problem with him.
The way he scores it isn't really possible to be efficient. He scores in too difficult of ways.
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He scores more efficiently than Lillard. So he gets and makes shots easier than he does.

Hayward was more efficient (easier time making shots?) than Paul George and Dwayne Wade.Hayward was really similar to Jimmy Butler and Klay Thompson in efficiency.
 
#bern said:
If you normalize our pace, those are his numbers. Numbers are deceiving, and overrated. We play at a slow pace, so Hayward and others score less. Doesn't mean they're worse than guys that play with a faster pace. Does that make sense?
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I don't worry about pace or haywards ppg. I watch him play. Like all the time. I don't think he is good enough to be the best player on a top team. I wouldn't want to ever pay him 32-39 million dollars a year.

I really don't need any numbers at all to come to this conclusion since I watch him play all the time.

Doesn't mean you or anyone else can't come to a different conclusion for your own reasons though.

I'm fine with others disagreeing on this. And I have said many times that if the jazz do give him the 5 year max then I will still be happy and love this team and I still think we will be really good.
 
Broncster said:
He scores more efficiently than Lillard. So he gets and makes shots easier than he does.

Hayward was more efficient (easier time making shots?) than Paul George and Dwayne Wade.Hayward was really similar to Jimmy Butler and Klay Thompson in efficiency.
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He never had a stretch of games like lillard did last year.
Lillard can carry a team on his shoulders. He can drop 30 points on the blink of an eye. He hit 50 points twice in a couple weeks last season. His potential is much higher. He might never reach it. But he also might. I think Hayward has already reached his potential. (Just my opinion.)

But again. I watched Hayward play every game he has ever played. I don't think he is good enough for the contract he will get. I don't think he is good enough to be the best player on a great team.

I'm fine with anyone who wants to disagree. I won't try to change your mind.
 
Gordon Hayward this season was #19 in Offensive win Shares, #20 in Value over replacement player, Played the second most minutes, averaged the second most minutes, scored the 12th most free throws, was #13 in free throw attempts and was #16 in points scored total for the season. This is against all the players in the NBA not just his position. He had a better true shooting percentage than Paul George, Dirk, Russell Westbrook, DeRozan, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving and 330 other NBA players. A large chunk of the players above him had a much lower usage rate.

I think a lot of people are angry we missed the playoffs and its tainting their view of Hayward. We didnt miss because of him we missed because we had the second most amount of injuries to the second youngest team in the NBA. A couple more wins bounce our way in those last second shot games (THAT ARE PURE LUCK WHO WINS) and people would be raving about what an incredible and amazing job Hayward did leading the injury plagued extremely young team to the playoffs.

I also think people are remebering how Hayward looked towards the end of the season. He was playing through injury and had very little lift. Yet he was finding ways to score despite this. He was also really worn down. Playing the second most minutes in the NBA being the main and for the most part sole focus of opposing teams defenses, being double and triple teamed, being hit as much as possible to slow him down by the other team every time he was off the ball trying to get open and being pushed a lot on every drive. I dont think people understand that Hayward was focused in on the same level that teams focused on Lebron and other big time players. Our offense sputtered when he was off the court. Hayward if he was allowed to run off ball freely like the rest of our players and was not the sole focus would look much better efficiency wise. No he is not as good as LBJ, Durant and some of the other stars but he is in the next tier down from that. He had an amazing season with a really young team that was decimated by injuries and he played his *** off until the end of the season.

Yes I would like to pair another big name player with him. Yes it would be awesome to get a star player that is on the LBJ or Durant level. But the likelihood of that, even if we are the worst team in the NBA for a decade, is unlikely. Chances are we dont land that player. Yes I would like one of our other players to take a jump and become much better. None of that means we should trade away our best player. There is almost no chance we land a player of Haywards caliber in a trade for another player. The only player I think has a chance of that is Cousins. There is a chance we could trade for him and he gets his head together and plays at a level that is elite. But I would rather trade other players to get him. There is a very real chance no player from this draft becomes as good as Hayward. It is a crap shoot if a player does become better that we are the one to pick him.
 
Lillard can go off in spurts, absolutely. He's a great defensive player. He's also inefficient and can't guard anybody. But hey, defense isn't sexy like dunks and 3's.
 
fishonjazz said:
He never had a stretch of games like lillard did last year.
Lillard can carry a team on his shoulders. He can drop 30 points on the blink of an eye. He hit 50 points twice in a couple weeks last season. His potential is much higher. He might never reach it. But he also might. I think Hayward has already reached his potential. (Just my opinion.)

But again. I watched Hayward play every game he has ever played. I don't think he is good enough for the contract he will get. I don't think he is good enough to be the best player on a great team.

I'm fine with anyone who wants to disagree. I won't try to change your mind.
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Still you said Hayward has harder time scoring and his shots are harder shots than other high level players. Fact is Hayward (based on your parameters) has an easier time scoring than Lillard. He is more efficient scorer than Lillard. He is also far more consistent. Lillard did have some big games but he also really struggled to score at times and had awful games and shot his team out of many games. Hayward has also got hot and had big games. I also think its fine that you and others think he is "capped out" on his potential but I dont see any real signs of that. He is only 1 year older than Lillard who you say still has lots of upside. He has consistently improved his game every year while taking on a bigger role. Lillard also gives up monster amounts of points every game. Offense is only half the game...
 
fishonjazz said:
I wouldn't.
Imo. He doesn't

That's my main problem with him.
The way he scores it isn't really possible to be efficient. He scores in too difficult of ways.
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He was like top ten in overall fts attempted on the year, pretty efficient.

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King Cy said:
He was like top ten in overall fts attempted on the year, pretty efficient.

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True. He does a good job at getting calls. I would never say that hayward is poor at getting to the line.
 
Broncster said:
Gordon Hayward this season was #19 in Offensive win Shares, #20 in Value over replacement player, Played the second most minutes, averaged the second most minutes, scored the 12th most free throws, was #13 in free throw attempts and was #16 in points scored total for the season. This is against all the players in the NBA not just his position. He had a better true shooting percentage than Paul George, Dirk, Russell Westbrook, DeRozan, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving and 330 other NBA players. A large chunk of the players above him had a much lower usage rate.

I think a lot of people are angry we missed the playoffs and its tainting their view of Hayward. We didnt miss because of him we missed because we had the second most amount of injuries to the second youngest team in the NBA. A couple more wins bounce our way in those last second shot games (THAT ARE PURE LUCK WHO WINS) and people would be raving about what an incredible and amazing job Hayward did leading the injury plagued extremely young team to the playoffs.

I also think people are remebering how Hayward looked towards the end of the season. He was playing through injury and had very little lift. Yet he was finding ways to score despite this. He was also really worn down. Playing the second most minutes in the NBA being the main and for the most part sole focus of opposing teams defenses, being double and triple teamed, being hit as much as possible to slow him down by the other team every time he was off the ball trying to get open and being pushed a lot on every drive. I dont think people understand that Hayward was focused in on the same level that teams focused on Lebron and other big time players. Our offense sputtered when he was off the court. Hayward if he was allowed to run off ball freely like the rest of our players and was not the sole focus would look much better efficiency wise. No he is not as good as LBJ, Durant and some of the other stars but he is in the next tier down from that. He had an amazing season with a really young team that was decimated by injuries and he played his *** off until the end of the season.

Yes I would like to pair another big name player with him. Yes it would be awesome to get a star player that is on the LBJ or Durant level. But the likelihood of that, even if we are the worst team in the NBA for a decade, is unlikely. Chances are we dont land that player. Yes I would like one of our other players to take a jump and become much better. None of that means we should trade away our best player. There is almost no chance we land a player of Haywards caliber in a trade for another player. The only player I think has a chance of that is Cousins. There is a chance we could trade for him and he gets his head together and plays at a level that is elite. But I would rather trade other players to get him. There is a very real chance no player from this draft becomes as good as Hayward. It is a crap shoot if a player does become better that we are the one to pick him.
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Think a lot of it is we watch Hayward a lot and we don't watch the other guys as much. We see Hayward's flaws more so some people just blow those up.

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#bern said:
Lillard can go off in spurts, absolutely. He's a great defensive player. He's also inefficient and can't guard anybody. But hey, defense isn't sexy like dunks and 3's.
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Those contradictions lol. I know what u meant tho.

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stitches said:
How does he not score efficiently? He's well above average efficiency wise two years in a row on pretty high USG%.
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I guess i just look at the 43% from the field and 35% from three and dont like those numbers. Maybe i get too caught up on those numbers.

Again, (sounding like a broken record at this point) i have watched all of haywards games in his 6 years. I dont think he is good enough for 32-39 million dollars and i dont think he is good enough to be the best player on a great team. I fully admit that i could be wrong. I also have no problem with someone else who wants to disagree. I respect those peoples opinions.
Is that ok with everyone?
 
Broncster said:
Still you said Hayward has harder time scoring and his shots are harder shots than other high level players. Fact is Hayward (based on your parameters) has an easier time scoring than Lillard. He is more efficient scorer than Lillard. He is also far more consistent. Lillard did have some big games but he also really struggled to score at times and had awful games and shot his team out of many games. Hayward has also got hot and had big games. I also think its fine that you and others think he is "capped out" on his potential but I dont see any real signs of that. He is only 1 year older than Lillard who you say still has lots of upside. He has consistently improved his game every year while taking on a bigger role. Lillard also gives up monster amounts of points every game. Offense is only half the game...
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Whats funny is that i didn't disagree about lillard being less efficient. I believe that he has much more potential due to his natural abilities. I think lillard at his best is better than hayward at his best. i have seen both players at thier best so far in their careers. To me, lillard looked better at his best than hayward did.
 
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