Terror Attack in France, 84 Dead, 50 injured (so far)

[The Thriller]

How does Israel depend on US support? They do get US support, unconditionally, because of the power of their lobby. And I never said anything about Israel anyway. I feel that the US-Israel relationship, while morally questionable and counterproductive, plays a minor role in this debacle.

Some Muslim countries, like Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia, and a couple of others would still receive US aid as long as continue on the path to liberalization. Countries like Saudi Arabia would be faced with tough choices though, which would be a good thing.

Also, I know none of this will happen any time soon. If anything, the US will continue to make decisions that justify the existence of its 500b+ military budget, and the terrorism problem will continue to get worse.

I was the one that brought up Israel.

There's no way western powers pacify the Middle East as long as western powers continue to support Israel while Palestinians suffer. It just promotes that "us v them" mentality.

 

[Siro]

This would be a surgical strike(s) in the western part of Iraq. More like a Bill Clinton Saddam plan than the full on invasion that Dubya did.

Irrelevant. The US can develop a magical bullet that kills every ISIS member instantly, and nothing would change. Tens of millions of Muslims sympathize with ISIS' ideology, and all it takes is one disenfranchised European Muslim, a Syrian whose been left homeless by drone strikes, or a Saudi whose been brought up to hate anything that deviates from his own ideology for this to happen again and again and again.

 

[Siro]

I was the one that brought up Israel.

There's no way western powers pacify the Middle East as long as western powers continue to support Israel while Palestinians suffer. It just promotes that "us v them" mentality.

I don't even understand the connection you're trying to make. What does Israel have to do with the existence of violent extremists?

 

[The Thriller]

I don't blame Israel for not giving up what you're suggesting.
Golan Heights is way too strategic for defense... I'm being lazy so will stop there, but they would be plain stupid to give up their key areas of defense when everyone in the region has been against them for a millennia. Having said that, the rhetoric could certainly take a major nosedive and just stfu.

They haven't been fighting for 1,000 years.

They actually got along fine until the beginning of the 20th century. Things spilled over in 1947. I think there could be an agreement made now after decades of death and destruction.

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iRYZjOuUnlU

 

[Siro]

I don't blame Israel for not giving up what you're suggesting.
Golan Heights is way too strategic for defense... I'm being lazy so will stop there, but they would be plain stupid to give up their key areas of defense when everyone in the region has been against them for a millennia. Having said that, the rhetoric could certainly take a major nosedive and just stfu.

Golan Heights is 100% worthless. Israel would have given it back in an instant had Syria agreed to a peace treaty. They had no problem giving Sinai back to Egypt despite it ACTUALLY being important.

 

[The Thriller]

I don't even understand the connection you're trying to make. What does Israel have to do with the existence of violent extremists?

How doesn't the conflict of Israel/Western powers have to do with violent extremists? You're looking at ground zero.

Osama Bin Laden's #1 complaint was that western powers were too supportive of Israel and meddled too much with the Middle East.

ISIS, which was formerly known as Al Qaeda Iraq, follows the same credo along with wanting to establish a dominate caliphate (destroying Israel) and usher in the apocalypse.

 

[The Thriller]

Golan Heights is 100% worthless. Israel would have given it back in an instant had Syria agreed to a peace treaty. They had no problem giving Sinai back to Egypt despite it ACTUALLY being important.

It's the West Bank and Gaza that both Palestine and Israel want. The West Bank Of Jerusalem. But the Gaza right now is complicated as its in the hands of Hamas. That's where most of your rocket attacks and suicide bombers come from.

 

[Siro]

How doesn't the conflict of Israel/Western powers have to do with violent extremists? You're looking at ground zero.

Osama Bin Laden's #1 complaint was that western powers were too supportive of Israel and meddled too much with the Middle East.

ISIS, which was formerly known as Al Qaeda Iraq, follows the same credo along with wanting to establish a dominate caliphate (destroying Israel) and usher in the apocalypse.

The rise of the current paradigm is a lot more recent than the Israel-Palestine conflict. And it is really a symbolic and emotional subject as opposed to an actual force behind the violent interpretation of Islam. You think the whole region morphed into this cluster**** because of a conflict affecting less than 0.1% of Muslims. Obviously not.

 

[The Thriller]

Irrelevant. The US can develop a magical bullet that kills every ISIS member instantly, and nothing would change. Tens of millions of Muslims sympathize with ISIS' ideology, and all it takes is one disenfranchised European Muslim, a Syrian whose been left homeless by drone strikes, or a Saudi whose been brought up to hate anything that deviates from his own ideology for this to happen again and again and again.

Tens of millions sympathize with their ideology? Do you have any data or texts to back that up?

I don't think the number is nearly that high.

Isis thrives in western Iraq because the Iraqi rebuild was so poorly handled after the Iraqi invasion and because Assad refused to make necessary and moderate reforms.

Cmon, I think you're grossly overestimating the popularity of Isis ideology. It's isolated to western iraq eastern Syria.

Give Sunnis in Iraq political and economic power and Isis crumbles. Hell, most of their leaders are former Baathists. Give them jobs and their precious ideology will be long forgotten.

 

[Deleted member 848]

That's what created the problem in the first place. What we need is to do THE OPPOSITE. Complete military withdrawal from the Middle East. Ban on military sales for the countries spreading this cancerous ideology, like Saudi Arabia. And extending aid that comes with strings attached (reform and liberalization) as opposed to the current policy of supporting whichever dictator is most U.S. friendly (until we decide it's time to take them out).

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Siro again.

 

[The Thriller]

The rise of the current paradigm is a lot more recent than the Israel-Palestine conflict. And it is really a symbolic and emotional subject as opposed to an actual force behind the violent interpretation of Islam. You think the whole region morphed into this cluster**** because of a conflict affecting less than 0.1% of Muslims. Obviously not.

No, I think you can trace the region headed to the radical extremist crapper when we ousted Mossadegh. A stable, secular, and democratic Iran would've done wonders for the region.

Had Israel made concessions along the way.

And had we never invaded Iraq, things would be looking far different today.

 

[♪alt13]

Tens of millions sympathize with their ideology? Do you have any data or texts to back that up?

I don't think the number is nearly that high.

Isis thrives in western Iraq because the Iraqi rebuild was so poorly handled after the Iraqi invasion and because Assad refused to make necessary and moderate reforms.

Cmon, I think you're grossly overestimating the popularity of Isis ideology. It's isolated to western iraq eastern Syria.

Give Sunnis in Iraq political and economic power and Isis crumbles. Hell, most of their leaders are former Baathists. Give them jobs and their precious ideology will be long forgotten.

You do realize that you are talking to a dude that iirc grew up in Jordan. I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say that Siro hasa better handle on the attitudes of people in the region than anyone else here.

I imagine he probably has a better handle on the muslim community in the states than any of us as well.

 

[Deleted member 848]

The most beautiful woman I ever saw in my life was on that beach in Nice, topless. We had a nice conversation. It was so challenging keeping my eyes on hers. I will never forget her.

This is a heartbreaking tragedy. It bothers me how some posters are choosing to behave in this thread. The main one I'm finding myself in agreement with is Thriller... which is weird for me. Maybe it means there's hope for a unified response and solution to this terrible scourge. Radical Islamic terrorism must be defeated. We need to take action now. Do any influential Muslims or even leaders of Arab countries agree? I sure hope so.

You're not going to defeat radical Islamic terrorism with boots on the ground in the Middle East. That'll be about as effective as every attempt at ME regime change undertaken in the past 25 years.

 

[Siro]

Tens of millions sympathize with their ideology? Do you have any data or texts to back that up?

I don't think the number is nearly that high.

Isis thrives in western Iraq because the Iraqi rebuild was so poorly handled after the Iraqi invasion and because Assad refused to make necessary and moderate reforms.

Cmon, I think you're grossly overestimating the popularity of Isis ideology. It's isolated to western iraq eastern Syria.

Give Sunnis in Iraq political and economic power and Isis crumbles. Hell, most of their leaders are former Baathists. Give them jobs and their precious ideology will be long forgotten.

I said ISIS' ideology. Surveys about Al Qaeda, for example, used to show support in double figures across the Muslim world. ISIS is specially horrific, and thus is very unpopular. But even they have some support.

You can answer your question with a quick Google search, if you're curious about actual support for ISIS in the Muslim world, which ranges between 1% up to 20%.

What matters is, ISIS does not exist in a vacuum. It is not a bunch of crazies who happened to exist in one region and decided to band together. Extremist views are quite common in the Muslim world, and if ISIS falls, others will rise. Unless you fix the root causes.

Edit: Also, ISIS is just one of countless terrorist organizations that target civilians in Muslim countries.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Killing hundreds of thousands is not what we need. It's time to declare war against our enemy. We've got to make a unified statement with all of the Western world and as many other countries as will participate and speak out against terrorism. We need Arab countries to stand with us on this. We've got to team with technology companies to cripple their communication system. We've got to kill their leaders with precision strikes. We've got to completely eliminate ISIS landholds. We have to prevent them from holding training camps. We must stop the money flow. No mpre pansy politically correct fear of stating exactly who this enemy is: Radical Islamic Terrorism. That should not be offensive to peaceful Muslims. If it is then we've got an enormous problem.

This is wishful thinking. America's biggest Arab ally in the world is the undisputed #1 promoter of Wahhabist extremist Islamist doctrine that ISIS has taken & run with. Middle Eastern geopolitics isn't as simple as you're making it to be-- it's not just a matter of "we need to all condemn ISIS and decide to kill them off". The power balances & forces that be in this current situation are much more complicated.


Also don't forget how the modern Middle East after the Ottoman dissolution is largely a creation of western colonialism with puppet dictators all asserting power with the support of either the Soviet or Western power factions.

The whole region is totally a ****ing mess, and an unfortunate chunk of it largely has to do with western meddling.

 

[♪alt13]

You're not going to defeat radical Islamic terrorism with boots on the ground in the Middle East. That'll be about as effective as every attempt at ME regime change undertaken in the past 25 years.

but this time we will have a draft and send millions. Iraq+Vietnam=Mission Accomplished 4 realz

 

[Deleted member 848]

but this time we will have a draft and send millions. Iraq+Vietnam=Mission Accomplished 4 realz

dude I'm so worried about Hillary getting elected and ****ing doing this exact thing.

I really wish every pro-war politician would have to either send themselves or a loved one to one of these wars that they deem so important & necessary.

 

[The Thriller]

I said ISIS' ideology. Surveys about Al Qaeda, for example, used to show support in double figures across the Muslim world. ISIS is specially horrific, and thus is very unpopular. But even they have some support.

You can answer your question with a quick Google search, if you're curious about actual support for ISIS in the Muslim world, which ranges between 1% up to 20%.

What matters is, ISIS does not exist in a vacuum. It is not a bunch of crazies who happened to exist in one region and decided to band together. Extremist views are quite common in the Muslim world, and if ISIS falls, others will rise. Unless you fix the root causes.

Edit: Also, ISIS is just one of countless terrorist organizations that target civilians in Muslim countries.

Interesting

 

[♪alt13]

dude I'm so worried about Hillary getting elected and ****ing doing this exact thing.

I really wish every pro-war politician would have to either send themselves or a loved one to one of these wars that they deem so important & necessary.

I'm tired of a 2 party system where it doesn't matter which party is in power they will be always find a war and the opposition will always be tepidly supportive, at least until campaign season.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I'm tired of a 2 party system where it doesn't matter which party is in power they will be always find a war and the opposition will always be tepidly supportive, at least until campaign season.

i know frank was trolling (and JimLes did bring up some points about coalitions sometimes being able to arrest bill progression) but holy **** u guys, two party politics ****ing blows. Following the Democrat Policy forum was nuts-- politicians voting against policies that the majority of the Democratic constituents wanted, for no "apparent" reasons.