The Inevitability of Impeachment

[babe]

I have to admit, the first thing I thought of tonight was that Watergate Saturday Night Massacre from decades ago and it does seem "as if history was being collapsed into a black hole, and everything is happening faster then the speed of light".

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...attorney-general-sally-yates?CMP=share_btn_fb

"Analysts compared the firing to the 1973 “Saturday night massacre” when Richard Nixon sacked the special Watergate prosecutor, Archibald Cox, prompting the resignation of attorney general Elliot Richardson.

Laurence Tribe, a constitutional law professor at Harvard University, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow Show: “I think it’s historic. It certainly reminded me immediately of the Saturday night massacre. There are many differences but one is how quickly this has happened in the Trump presidency.

“It’s as if history is being collapsed into a black hole and everything is happening faster than the speed of light.”

Tribe argued that “the executive order really challenges who we are as Americans and violates important parts of the constitution” and noted there had been protests from the ground up.

“I think it’s an important turning point in our history and tonight is part of that extraordinary moment we are living through.”

This is absurd. I keep hoping you're not in the tank for revolution and such, but this is not encouraging.

Pres Obama and democrats voted for and approved the actions and policies Trump announced he will actually implement. Nice to vote for good sounding stuff like vetting people applying for entry for security concerns. Nothing different here from having a "no fly list" of American citizens who for some reason are not believed to be trustworthy passengers on a plane.

Dems can vote for stuff when they know it won't be actually implemented, but the real question is how do we screen entrants to keep real dangerous folks out, like people who are known terrorists.

I call you out here as a dupe, if not a liar, for a "cause" that amounts to essentially undermining civil society. At least, find someone with an accurate quote from Trump about what the policy is or is intended to be.

Watergate was something else. Back then, when I asked a Chinese professor what he thought of Nixon's impeachment and resignation, he was fairly positive about it, noting that the United States is unusual in that people can fix things that go wrong. Nixon violated our laws, and tied to cover it up. Trump announced he will enforce existing law, which Obama approved publicly on the advice of security professionals. If you were serious about Presidents getting out of control and unaccountable to the people, I have no idea why Hillary didn't set off some alarms in your mind. But here, Trump is acting on a campaigns promise to enforce existing laws. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything beyond that is a reprehensible lie.

reprehensible in that it is intended to undermine American constitutional institutions. Promote a "revolution".

I find Sean Hannity's discourse on the subject to be a lot better, and Rush Limbaugh. I didn't get Mark Levin today, or Breitbart, but here is a YouTube bit on it that covers some aspects I've heard from others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNu4xU9qOEM

Nobody wants to stop all immigration from any country. People just need to get in line, apply for a visa and cooperate with US officials as they seek to establish some sense of selection that we hope will actually deter those who can be found out to be terrorists.

 

[nateboz]

Trump is super aggressive. He isn't trying to make famous people love him. He sees the world in views I've never seen. He is doing what he can as fast as he can to make America the best it can be. He doesn't give participation trophies and those people who live off them don't know what to do now.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[babe]

Impeachment? Here's what they're saying.....

According to a lying source:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-on-president-trumps-controversial-travel-ba

I read through it. Yah, sure. Utah's Lee, Hatch, and Chaffetz are going to impeach Trump because they haven't read the order yet, and have questions.

Every politician queried is going to qualify support for an executive order while studying it out and asking questions.

There was a thing about it applying to green card holders. Oh yah. Green cards can be revoked for reason if there is information proving a plan to commit terrorism. Uh. Huh.
So will your rights to get on a plane or travel abroad.

We should use all that info we are collecting on everybody for the purpose of preventing terrorism..... And all those security professions we pay to gather information relative to our national security. If we are not going to use it, why spend the money to get it.

Well, actually, I don't like the HSA surveillance state. Used to apply only to non-citizens. US citizens should be secure in the papers and communications.... well, really. But I've traveled abroad and had to stand in line, and wait weeks for a visa approval too. That's the prerogative of government everywhere. The US President has long had the authority to implement laws and enforce them as they are passed. Obama didn't enforce some of his own "laws" because well, he's special. He has "disgression" on what laws he should enforce. And he told his admin not to really do some enforcement or implementation, and American died as a result.

 

[babe]

Trumps statement

I've been looking for the actual executive order to see what it says.

Here's something I think is relevant:

America is a proud nation of immigrants and we will continue to show compassion to those fleeing oppression, but we will do so while protecting our own citizens and border. America has always been the land of the free and home of the brave. We will keep it free and keep it safe, as the media knows, but refuses to say. My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months. The seven countries named in the Executive Order are the same countries previously identified by the Obama administration as sources of terror. To be clear, this is not a Muslim ban, as the media is falsely reporting. This is not about religion - this is about terror and keeping our country safe. There are over 40 different countries worldwide that are majority Muslim that are not affected by this order. We will again be issuing visas to all countries once we are sure we have reviewed and implemented the most secure policies over the next 90 days. I have tremendous feeling for the people involved in this horrific humanitarian crisis in Syria. My first priority will always be to protect and serve our country, but as President I will find ways to help all those who are suffering.”

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...mp-statement-regarding-recent-executive-order

Interesting new reality here.....if you're gonna try to be a revolutionary online, you're gonna have to learn to deal with available facts......

 

[Gameface]

Is it really insane, or are people acting insane for stupid reasons?

I think the wall is a stupid idea, but is it really that insane and inhumane? We have laws. People don't respect those laws. We have laws against unfettered immigration. Who really are the A-holes in that scenario? Its stupid that anyone who is suggesting those laws be enforced be made out to be the bad guy. Its like we live in bizzarro land where good is bad and bad is good.

You change the ****ing laws. You admit the people who want to be citizens of the U.S. as fast as any freedom loving individual anywhere in the world can raise their hand. That's what you do. This is not bizzaro land. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. Get brave with me, my fellow American. Let's have the courage to do what is right and not give into our fears. Let us embrace humanity.

 

[babe]

You change the ****ing laws. You admit the people who want to be citizens of the U.S. as fast as any freedom loving individual anywhere in the world can raise their hand. That's what you do. This is not bizzaro land. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. Get brave with me, my fellow American. Let's have the courage to do what is right and not give into our fears. Let us embrace humanity.

Your position here relies on the assumption that we're bringing in people who love freedom more than, say, Sharia Law or whatever other notion of forcing US citizens to comply with their ways or convert to their State Religion.

Some fundamentalist Muslims read things in the Koran about being zealous for Allah and killing "infidels". We will, even under Trump's plan, still let those believers in as long as they are not associated with a terrorist organization to our knowledge.

Those who will not come in are those who we can find information about that proves an intention to do harm to us. Some will wait a few hours, some a few days, weeks or maybe even a couple of months until we can assess that immigrant. I've had to wait for a visa, I consider it normal prudence.

 

[fishonjazz]

I have yet to see any of the Trump apologists explain why Saudi Arabia wasn't included.

 

[str8line]

He's a dangerous man with some money in his pocket.

 

[str8line]

Did not mean to dislike your post, Fish.

 

[LogGrad98]

I have yet to see any of the Trump apologists explain why Saudi Arabia wasn't included.

To be fair apparently this list was started by Obama and the current administration is just enforcing it. Which means we are deeply in bed with a country that produces more terrorists than almost any other. Which in lots of ways is even more disturbing.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Trump is super aggressive. He isn't trying to make famous people love him. He sees the world in views I've never seen. He is doing what he can as fast as he can to make America the best it can be. He doesn't give participation trophies and those people who live off them don't know what to do now.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

so do you like it or oppose it?

 

[JazzGal]

The vetting process has worked well so far, and this action was not necessary while a review process occurred. People act like terrorists are coming into the country with the intent to kill us on a regular basis. But where are these attacks? Not happening in any kind of numbers that are a threat to us. Our home-grown terrorists who oppose our Middle East policies are a bigger threat, and that is pretty miniscule.

When we compare the numbers of Americans killed by foreign terrorists to the number we have unnecessarily killed in the world due to bad foreign policies, our country appears to be a much larger terrorist threat than any of the countries on this list.

When are we going to react out of love instead of fear? We are being used by an administration that knows the way to control the hearts and minds of its constituents is to convince them that their lives are in imminent danger. When did we stop being the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Domestic violence, gun violence, drugs, impaired driving, sexual assault - these are the things that directly threaten us. Let's direct our attention and money toward those and then we may consider ourselves to be safer. Don't let misplaced fear win.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[b_line]

He's a dangerous man with some money in his pocket.

So many Russian prostitutes around him...

 

[b_line]

So Steve Bannon is pretty bad right? Like maybe worse than Cheney?

 

[Revolution 9]

To be fair apparently this list was started by Obama and the current administration is just enforcing it. Which means we are deeply in bed with a country that produces more terrorists than almost any other. Which in lots of ways is even more disturbing.

that list was from years ago, and not directly or shouldnt be linked to todays current situation.
two different agendas, and goals from the "list".

We need to get out of bed with Saudis. It just shows how full of it we are sometimes.
Trump said he was shocked at the actions of people getting their heads cut off.
He stated that this hasnt been done for years. Hasnt Saudi been chopping off heads as execution for all of our lifetime?

 

[Stoked]

I have yet to see any of the Trump apologists explain why Saudi Arabia wasn't included.

To be fair apparently this list was started by Obama and the current administration is just enforcing it. Which means we are deeply in bed with a country that produces more terrorists than almost any other. Which in lots of ways is even more disturbing.

This list is from the Obama admin but this ban is not what they were doing with it. The Obama admin only had them listed for travel warnings. The Trump admin is what took that list for the ban.

Personally I think one of the reasons they, along with some other places, are not on the list is so that the current admin has a built in defense. "It's Obamas list", "It's not a muslim ban"... much craftier than he is given credit for IMO.

 

[Stoked]

So Steve Bannon is pretty bad right? Like maybe worse than Cheney?

I'll wait till he shoots one of his friends before I call him worse lol.

 

[fishonjazz]

This list is from the Obama admin but this ban is not what they were doing with it. The Obama admin only had them listed for travel warnings. The Trump admin is what took that list for the ban.

Personally I think one of the reasons they, along with some other places, are not on the list is so that the current admin has a built in defense. "It's Obamas list", "It's not a muslim ban"... much craftier than he is given credit for IMO.

Good post.
I really appreciate the fact that you almost always seem to be more informed than most in these discussions and rarely let bias influence the info that you post. Even when i dont agree with you I am never upset by what you have to say. Thanks

 

[fishonjazz]

Looking at comments from some of the articles about the ban I see tons of comments by trump supporters claiming (and truly believing) that obama already did the exact same thing as Trump is doing now.

 

[babe]

To be perfectly clear, I like the "turn" I see in this thread in the past several hours, which I deem to be a turn away from a sheer anti-Trump panic towards actual facts and well-founded concerns.

Presidents are not supposed to rule the nation by "Executive Orders". Presidents are supposed to coherently uphold the laws passed by Congress, and defend us from foreign enemies. Any EO that goes beyond that constitutional authority is bad, and we should protest them. We've got thousands of unconstitutional EOs on the books from the past 80 years.

I still haven't found a copy of this EO to study, but I have found some questions about whether this policy directives are "Executive Orders" of just public relations statements. I mean, is there something not already on the law books in it?

As for Saudi Arabia not being on that list, it is my impression that we have some kind of relationship with the Saudi government that is supposed to be beneficial to us generally. I should qualify my bias here with the disclosure that one of my nieces is married to one of those Saudi bigwigs, converted to Islam, and all that. Haven't seen her in years. But I complained about George Bush letting about 50 of Bin Laden's Saudi relatives get on a plane and skedaddle a few days after 9/11. These were people with information relevant to that attack. One of the reasons I'm harboring some suspicions about our "darkside" psy-ops and our own government on some points. Call me crazy, man. I believe I'm treated like a mushroom by my own government. The 9/11 terrorists were known for their associations with terrorism but our own intelligence and law enforcement deliberately chose to do nothing.

The only reason Obama or Trump have these publicity stunts about national security is because there's political value to pretend to care.
"