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The Millsap dilemma

GVC said:
So why are these stupid questions about coming off the bench only asked about Paul?

There are very few things that Big Al does better than Paul Millsap on the basketball court.
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Because Jefferson is a better and more versatile than Millsap. Jefferson has length, and size for the position against starters and Millsap does not. The bigger, longer PF's really give Millsap fits on both ends of the floor. Jefferson is more consistent and better in the low post than Millsap. Jefferson is the better player. Millsap has heart and plays hard at all times. It's not enough.

There are less things that Millsap does better than Jefferson on the court.

Advantages
Rebounding. = or favor Jefferson.
post offense. Jefferson
mid range game. Millsap
Post defense. Jefferson
Help defense. =
Defensive rotation. Millsap

Since I don't think Millsap is significantly better in either category he is better at. And Jefferson is significantly better in the post on both ends of the floor I prefer Jefferson playing against starters. Favors is already better than Millsap defensively and at rebounding. I prefer AJ/Favors over Millsap/Favors or AJ/Millsap.

As far as these questions being asked about Millsap instead of Jefferson. That's easy, Jefferson is a better player to build around than an undersized PF. Jefferson and Favors compliment each other better than Jefferson and Millsap.

I'm all for keeping Millap and giving him 25-35 MPG as long as he's coming off of the bench and Favors is getting more minutes than he is.
 
Millsap is a hard worker, so I have no doubt that he he concentrates on playing the 3 spot this summer, then he should be able to achieve success there. He would have to get a bit more consistent beyond 18 feet and work on speed. I have no doubt he can do both. In the Utah system he would also have to work on moving without the ball and back-cuts, as he wouldn't be the one setting the pick but the one doing the curl. Ideally, though, would be for him to look at Lamar Odom as his example. Lamar deserves 6th man of the year and arguably could have been an All-Star. He plays 30+ minutes a game at the 3 or 4 position. I think Millsap could be Utah's Odom and Utah's candidate for sixth man of the year every year if he commits to it.
 
NAOS said:
I realize that this issue is magnified for a box-score peeper.
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Even the occasional box-score peeper recognizes that team chemistry comes from playing groups together, particularly when they are young/new to the team. Pretending you can substitute players in and out like they are Tinkertoys is unrealistic.
 
Sorry if these numbers have been posted but they do make you think twice about Big Al. If we were to draft a guy like Kanter makes you wonder if we should put Big Al on the market for that wonderful wing.

Consider this: Utah's offense improves 4.3 points per 100 possessions when Jefferson steps on the floor, but the team also hemorrhages another 9.4 points per 100 possession to the other team with him out there.

From ESPN, to lazy to look up Millsap's numbers, but Jefferson really needs to pick it up on the defensive end. Blocking some shots is not enough.
 
fishonjazz said:
Also anytime you have a guy who is tough as hell, plays through injuries, doesn't whine, works hard, has great moves/instincts around the basket, has a great shot from anywhere on the court, plays decent defense, is athletic, seems to want to be here, and isn't overpaid then you definately need to try to get rid of him. I dont think that dilemma is a good way to describe milsap. So he is undersized. that is his only weakness. his game is solid, his attitude is solid, his work ethic is off the charts, and hes not too expensive. In other words... he is a keeper in my book.
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Let him come off the bench like Antonio McDyess post-injury, Carl Landry, Big Baby, etc. He can still get 25 - 30 mins. as a 6th man.
 
I hope we keep Millsap over the summer, because his work ethic may be inspiring to other players. And if he doesn't work out at the 3, or off the bench, then we can trade him next year. But he has a lot of potential still, and nothing would be worse than seeing him go and regretting it a few years later like Matthews and Korver.
 
freakazoid said:
Is he twice as good? 14 million compared to 6.7 next year. I think GVC undervalues Al a bit, but he has a legitimate argument when you look at salaries.
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No he's not. But if we are trying to build a team into a real contender you need the better players. Al is better than Millsap. If Millsap were 6'10 or so like Jefferson he would probably be worth more than Al. He's not. They are both good bigs to have if they are willing to play their role.

I guess I'm not of the opinion that just because he makes twice as much means he needs to be twice as good. He's better, that's enough for me. I don't believe Millsap can be a starter at any position on a team that is a serious contender. I do believe Jefferson could be. So is that difference worth the salary? It is to me.
 
gregbroncs said:
No he's not. But if we are trying to build a team into a real contender you need the better players. Al is better than Millsap. If Millsap were 6'10 or so like Jefferson he would probably be worth more than Al. He's not. They are both good bigs to have if they are willing to play their role.

I guess I'm not of the opinion that just because he makes twice as much means he needs to be twice as good. He's better, that's enough for me. I don't believe Millsap can be a starter at any position on a team that is a serious contender. I do believe Jefferson could be. So is that difference worth the salary? It is to me.
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Greg, I'm not trying to post an opinion either way. I like both players. Don't want to trade either one, but Al is making twice as much as Sap. As far as I'm concerned, KOC should be looking at every deal available. 14 million vs. 6.7 million should be a consideration. Period.
 
Keep Millsap. You never know when injuries pop up - and even if they don't - Favors, Jefferson and Sap are three good bigs to have. All three will get playing time. Unless Favors totally screws up, he's going to become a starter at some point within the next 2 seasons, whether Millsap is on the roster or not. Having 3 quality bigs is not a major problem to me.

In 2008 the Lakers made the finals with Gasol and Odom. In 2009 they won the championship with Gasol, Bynum and Odom coming off the bench, and Odom primarily playing PF).
 
freakazoid said:
Greg, I'm not trying to post an opinion either way. I like both players. Don't want to trade either one, but Al is making twice as much as Sap. As far as I'm concerned, KOC should be looking at every deal available. 14 million vs. 6.7 million should be a consideration. Period.
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Cool. I don't necessarily disagree. KOC should always look at every deal available for all players. I like both players, I just prefer Big Al's size over Millsap. I actually enjoy watching and routing for Millsap more. But in the end I want a championship.

If Millsap can be convinced to be the backup Pf and still play with the passion and effort he does now I would prefer him to stay.

Wasn't trying to be an ***. No offense intended. I'm blunt, say what I'm thinking. Sometimes it comes off as I'm intentionally being an ***. You asked a question I tried to answer it.

Honestly I'm a bit confused myself about the best way to deal with AJ, Favors and Millsap. They could be a great 3 player rotation as PF/C. But one of them needs to come off of the bench and I don't think it should be Favors. That creates an issue with handling the 2 guys that are currently starting.
 
One Brow said:
Even the occasional box-score peeper recognizes that team chemistry comes from playing groups together, particularly when they are young/new to the team. Pretending you can substitute players in and out like they are Tinkertoys is unrealistic.
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I'm going to assume that while you are quoting my messages, you are actually addressing the world at large. This is reasonable for me to assume since nowhere to I espouse the supposedly wild things you are imagining.

You've never seen a substitution after 5 minutes, braugh?
You've never seen a different starting five to start the second half than the five to start the game, braugh?

WILD AND CRAZY **** I MIGHT BE SAYING HERE.
 
Paul_George_Old_Sage, you killed this thing on page 2, but I disagree with you regardless. After reading your post earlier today, I looked at how the Jazz would match up with the top 8 teams. Millsap is nothing but a disadvantage against all Eastern Conference teams, except maybe Luol Deng. The West looks better, but you have Favors trying to guard Odom, Millsap and Favors on Marion and Dirk, and Millsap on Durant. I don't see anything but disadvantage here.

I also have doubts he can lean up and speed up. I posted on how I'd love to see him work out a quicker shot release, but I just don't see him gaining enough quickness to earn a full time 3 starting job. He's just not a core guy; he's a situational nightmare.

I want Millsap for two reasons. Derrick Favors is nowhere near ready for full duty. Anyone who thinks the guy should get 35 minutes per is out of their mind. He won't stay on the floor. The kid is 19, raw as hell, and needs significant polishing. I doubt he'll get it for another couple of years. Once he does, look out, but until then you have to have some veteran leadership. The second reason is Sap is a beast that can't be underrated. What better sixth man can you have? Talk him into a combo 3-4 bench role and you're going to hurt some teams looking to rest.
 
franklin said:
Paul_George_Old_Sage, you killed this thing on page 2, but I disagree with you regardless. After reading your post earlier today, I looked at how the Jazz would match up with the top 8 teams. Millsap is nothing but a disadvantage against all Eastern Conference teams, except maybe Luol Deng. The West looks better, but you have Favors trying to guard Odom, Millsap and Favors on Marion and Dirk, and Millsap on Durant. I don't see anything but disadvantage here.

I also have doubts he can lean up and speed up. I posted on how I'd love to see him work out a quicker shot release, but I just don't see him gaining enough quickness to earn a full time 3 starting job. He's just not a core guy; he's a situational nightmare.
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If you are thinking exclusively in terms of man-to-man defense, then Sap would be a liability in some (but not all) of those cases. That is why I emphasized the right defensive scheme. Millsap would have to study the scouting report and be very dependable at taking away his opponents most desired option, and the help defense would have to be reliable.

Flip the coin and look at offense. I'd love to run a good pick for Sap so he can catch it down low against the likes of any of those guys. And, if he can continue to develop his outside game, then all the better.

it's 7-10 minutes... i mean, George has got to get his god damn minutes!!!
 
NAOS said:
Flip the coin and look at offense. I'd love to run a good pick for Sap so he can catch it down low against the likes of any of those guys. And, if he can continue to develop his outside game, then all the better.
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Have to jump in here - Millsap's a guy who can use a size advantage to his advantage on the boards, but not in the low-post. I can provide numerous examples, but recently I've seen Sap fail to score on both Gerald Wallace and Wilson Chandler - primarily on the right block. His best move is jab-step then shoot the step-back jumper, which for him is actually more effective against a bigger and slower PF than a SF with the quickness and athleticism to get up and challenge the shot.

IMO he's a PF who can play SF effectively in select matchups - but not the majority of them.
 
vslice02 said:
Have to jump in here - Millsap's a guy who can use a size advantage to his advantage on the boards, but not in the low-post. I can provide numerous examples, but recently I've seen Sap fail to score on both Gerald Wallace and Wilson Chandler - primarily on the right block. His best move is jab-step then shoot the step-back jumper, which for him is actually more effective against a bigger and slower PF than a SF with the quickness and athleticism to get up and challenge the shot.

IMO he's a PF who can play SF effectively in select matchups - but not the majority of them.
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sorry, I'm not talking about catching it down low for the kind of work that Jefferson does, but more in the way that Boozer used to catch and turn/dive to the basket. Millsap can also finish in similar scenarios, and is good with contact. I think, WITH THE RIGHT PLAYS, he could abuse many SFs.

but i agree with you more than disagree. All of this stuff I'm saying is highly designed and routinized stuff that is meant to be executed for a limited number of minutes and not in EVERY situation.
 
Revolution 9 said:
Sap and Al together is somewhat of a problem.

Sap off the bench is a dream come true.
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Sloan always liked to have a "veteran" anchor the 2nd unit and it seems Corbin wants to be Sloan Jr. I wish Millsap would accept that responsibility. Unless KOC trades for a veteran SF (or AK re-signs), I think Millsap will be starting at the 3. If he does, he should only play a few mins there and then slide over to 4 when Favors comes out. With 96 total mins at the 4/5, You can have each play 35/per and have Paul pick up 9-10 at SF. That would be perfect if we drafted a rookie wing at #6. The rookie could play 15 mins/per at SF. CJ could get 10-15 at SG behind Hayward and 10 at SF. And Evans could get the rest of the time at the 3.
 
I flipped the pancake before responding.

I'm not about to underrate Sap's remarkable ability to grow. I also can't overlook 17.3 and 7.6, and all the games Sap won. Anyone who wants to trade a Sap because Jazz are heavy at the spot aren't looking at 17 points per game. Those #'s are no a stroll in Central Park or a Saturday in Charlie's factory. That's real production and it won't be easily replaced--definitely not by one guy alone. How many 17 ppg players were dealt during last season? You don't give these guys away for a reason.

No matter which way I turn him I just don't see Sap as a consistent problem causer right out of the gate. He's a hell of a sixth man and that's where I want to see him.
 
NAOS said:
You've never seen a substitution after 5 minutes, braugh?
You've never seen a different starting five to start the second half than the five to start the game, braugh?
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I've never seen it done on as a planned strategy for a team contending for a championship, except for the last couple of years with Abdul-Jabbar. That was not a young team working out their chemistry, but a team led by veterans who already had the chemistry, and at the time Abdul-Jabbar was near 40.

Feel free to enlighten me. When was the last young, contending team whose rotational plan called for a substitution five minutes into a game, or for different starting units in the first and third quarter? Substituions for injuries, foul trouble, etc. obviously do not count.
 
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