Trump vs Pro Athletes

[franklin]

And there is a huge part of the problem is that people feel this way.

There color of ones skin has nothing to do with crime rate. Poverty or or issues might but not skin color.

Regardless even crimes that are committed at the same level between different skin colors, like smoking weed, have a very disproportionate rates of arrest.

You'd make a very good point if you didn't ignore the reality that crime is much higher in AA communities than typical white America. As I pointed out, you could use this exact same argument for hickville America, if anyone cared to parse crime statistics. Some actually have, and a huge portion of gun crime in America is among poor white areas where people tend to hold up the ghetto pride "you insult my mamma, I gonna shoot you" mantra.

It isn't about skin color. It's about attitude and all skin colors are profiled equally based on behavior.

 

[LogGrad98]

I do agree with that last paragraph.

Those are rates of arrested criminals for those crimes. Thats the point of the other study, to find a crime that we can track how much people actually do it and then see who gets arrested for it more often. People with black skin are arrested more, wrongfully accused more, harassed more, stopped more and so on.

Additionally my point still stands that the level of crime has nothing to do with the color of your skin. Just because you are born with a darker pigment of skin does not make you commit more crime. More likely larger things are at play such as poverty levels. Which is my original statement and I will stick by that.

That bolded statement is true. However your original assertion sounded like you were saying that blacks as a segment of the population do not commit crime at a rate any greater than any other segment that that assertion would simply not be true. Yes there are mitigating factors such as poverty and education levels, etc. but the fact is that blacks as a demographic group commit crimes at a higher rate than whites, and really any other single demographic group. The really sad part of that is that black on black crime is the highest by far of any demographic group within itself.

 

[LogGrad98]

You'd make a very good point if you didn't ignore the reality that crime is much higher in AA communities than typical white America. As I pointed out, you could use this exact same argument for hickville America, if anyone cared to parse crime statistics. Some actually have, and a huge portion of gun crime in America is among poor white areas where people tend to hold up the ghetto pride "you insult my mamma, I gonna shoot you" mantra.

It isn't about skin color. It's about attitude and all skin colors are profiled equally based on behavior.

Poverty level is the common denominator in crime, pretty much world wide. There is far less crime in more affluent countries and regions within countries than in less affluent areas. I remember seeing a statistic about this while we were in Germany that showed that where they were harboring more refugees the crime rates in general were higher, and if that population changed dramatically in a given area so did the crime rates proportionately.

 

[franklin]

Poverty level is the common denominator in crime, pretty much world wide. There is far less crime in more affluent countries and regions within countries than in less affluent areas. I remember seeing a statistic about this while we were in Germany that showed that where they were harboring more refugees the crime rates in general were higher, and if that population changed dramatically in a given area so did the crime rates proportionately.

That's exactly why I posted that we need to target job creation programs in the poorest areas of the nation. I don't care if it raises my taxes a bit. The savings and humanitarian feel goods will more than accommodate. But the Prison Industrial Complex doesn't like that idea, so.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Poverty level is the common denominator in crime, pretty much world wide. There is far less crime in more affluent countries and regions within countries than in less affluent areas. I remember seeing a statistic about this while we were in Germany that showed that where they were harboring more refugees the crime rates in general were higher, and if that population changed dramatically in a given area so did the crime rates proportionately.

i actually heard/read that it is not the poverty level, but the income inequality.
do not have the source at hand.

but basiclaly it said if everybody was equally poor their was less crime.

but men have the instinct to conquer, what others have and they don't so tend to commit more property crime.

 

[Ron Mexico]

That bolded statement is true. However your original assertion sounded like you were saying that blacks as a segment of the population do not commit crime at a rate any greater than any other segment that that assertion would simply not be true. Yes there are mitigating factors such as poverty and education levels, etc. but the fact is that blacks as a demographic group commit crimes at a higher rate than whites, and really any other single demographic group. The really sad part of that is that black on black crime is the highest by far of any demographic group within itself.

Again the color is your skin has no determining factor in committing crime. Yes people who are black are arrested more of crimes but as established there factors such as income inequality that is the real factor. Additionally the fact that black people are stopped, accused, arrested, and hassled by cops also leads to a higher arrest rates.

There are no reasons police should make an assumption about someone because of their skin color. But the fact is they do because people think that because you are black you are more likely to commit a crime like you are claiming. Should police presence be higher in areas with higher crime rates?

Again being black has 0 bearing on the level of committing crime.

But even if they did for some reason it is still racists to assume that because more black people commit crime that they should be targeted or that they all do. That is the definition of racism, assuming something about people because of preconceived notions you have even if the majority fit the mold based on their skin color.

 

[Ron Mexico]

You'd make a very good point if you didn't ignore the reality that crime is much higher in AA communities than typical white America. As I pointed out, you could use this exact same argument for hickville America, if anyone cared to parse crime statistics. Some actually have, and a huge portion of gun crime in America is among poor white areas where people tend to hold up the ghetto pride "you insult my mamma, I gonna shoot you" mantra.

It isn't about skin color. It's about attitude and all skin colors are profiled equally based on behavior.

I agree with the first statement. But many studies are showing the second is not true. That is why the example I showed is so meaningful. Finding a crime that we know people commit at the same level and seeing who is arrested for it more often. There are many other examples of this, like arrest rates for crack use vs cocaine use. Or just in areas where crime is committed at the same rates, black people are harassed more. The stop and frisk policy in NYC was a good example of this.

 

[LogGrad98]

I agree with the first statement. But many studies are showing the second is not true. That is why the example I showed is so meaningful. Finding a crime that we know people commit at the same level and seeing who is arrested for it more often. There are many other examples of this, like arrest rates for crack use vs cocaine use. Or just in areas where crime is committed at the same rates, black people are harassed more. The stop and frisk policy in NYC was a good example of this.

What studies are you referring to? Do you have any links besides the weed one?

 

[Ron Mexico]

What studies are you referring to? Do you have any links besides the weed one?

Here is one about how black people make up 13% of the drug user population but make up for more than 63% of arrests for drug possession. Some of the stats on this report are from the 90s but they have not changed. Today it is this "African Americans represent 12.5% of illicit drug users, but 29% of those arrested for drug offenses and 33% of those incarcerated in state facilities for drug offenses."
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rdusda.pdf


Here is one that shows black peole are given much longer sentences than white people for the same crimes.
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...achr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

Here is some that show the racial profiling that has happened in media with drug epidemics.
https://www.cjr.org/criticism/opioid-crisis-photos.php?link

Here is one that shows police stop black people at a higher rate than white people for traffic tickets and ticket them more often and search them more often.
https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

Here is one about police speaking more politely to white people than black people even when you control for contextual factors.
http://www.pnas.org/content/114/25/6521.abstract


Here is one of many talking about a few of the issues with crack vs cocaine laws and discrimination that targets black people unfairly.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing

There are tons more of this nature. I tried to post an array of topics.

Personally if people dont think that racism exists in the US society I think they are turning a blind eye to it. It is very prevalent in our society.

Plus again even if for some reason there was some thing in the genetic makeup of a black person (which there is not) that made them more likely to commit a crime it is still racist to profile and target them by definition. The fact is most (not all) stereotypes because a lot of people from a group fit into them it becomes racists to assume everyone fits into those stereotypes.

 

[franklin]

I agree with the first statement. But many studies are showing the second is not true. That is why the example I showed is so meaningful. Finding a crime that we know people commit at the same level and seeing who is arrested for it more often. There are many other examples of this, like arrest rates for crack use vs cocaine use. Or just in areas where crime is committed at the same rates, black people are harassed more. The stop and frisk policy in NYC was a good example of this.

I was boiling it down a little too much. Obviously there is some adjustment factor involving over-incarceration rates needed to make a true comparison. But I still don't think you can show a difference if you take equivalently crime ridden black and white cultures into account. If you have anything showing otherwise I'd love to see it.

Here is one about how black people make up 13% of the drug user population but make up for more than 63% of arrests for drug possession. Some of the stats on this report are from the 90s but they have not changed. Today it is this "African Americans represent 12.5% of illicit drug users, but 29% of those arrested for drug offenses and 33% of those incarcerated in state facilities for drug offenses."
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rdusda.pdf

I couldn't get through this without laughing. Are any of the other studies you posted worthwhile? I mean, basing an analysis on a survey is pretty far reaching. It's pretty easy to write off the fact that certain groups are more prone to not answering a survey correctly.

If any of the other ones are actual concrete evidence then I'll read them.

 

[LogGrad98]

Here is one about how black people make up 13% of the drug user population but make up for more than 63% of arrests for drug possession. Some of the stats on this report are from the 90s but they have not changed. Today it is this "African Americans represent 12.5% of illicit drug users, but 29% of those arrested for drug offenses and 33% of those incarcerated in state facilities for drug offenses."
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rdusda.pdf


Here is one that shows black peole are given much longer sentences than white people for the same crimes.
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...achr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

Here is some that show the racial profiling that has happened in media with drug epidemics.
https://www.cjr.org/criticism/opioid-crisis-photos.php?link

Here is one that shows police stop black people at a higher rate than white people for traffic tickets and ticket them more often and search them more often.
https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

Here is one about police speaking more politely to white people than black people even when you control for contextual factors.
http://www.pnas.org/content/114/25/6521.abstract


Here is one of many talking about a few of the issues with crack vs cocaine laws and discrimination that targets black people unfairly.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing

There are tons more of this nature. I tried to post an array of topics.

Personally if people dont think that racism exists in the US society I think they are turning a blind eye to it. It is very prevalent in our society.

Plus again even if for some reason there was some thing in the genetic makeup of a black person (which there is not) that made them more likely to commit a crime it is still racist to profile and target them by definition. The fact is most (not all) stereotypes because a lot of people from a group fit into them it becomes racists to assume everyone fits into those stereotypes.

Thank you, that is better. I think it is painfully obvious that racism, both overt and institutionalized, is rampant. It is a difficult thing to get a handle on as it is so pervasive.

 

[LogGrad98]

I was boiling it down a little too much. Obviously there is some adjustment factor involving over-incarceration rates needed to make a true comparison. But I still don't think you can show a difference if you take equivalently crime ridden black and white cultures into account. If you have anything showing otherwise I'd love to see it.



I couldn't get through this without laughing. Are any of the other studies you posted worthwhile? I mean, basing an analysis on a survey is pretty far reaching. It's pretty easy to write off the fact that certain groups are more prone to not answering a survey correctly.

If any of the other ones are actual concrete evidence then I'll read them.

Yeah self-reporting is the absolutely least effective way to gather data. It is never viewed as reliable in any scientific or statistical context. It is barely better than anecdotal evidence.

 

[franklin]

Yeah self-reporting is the absolutely least effective way to gather data. It is never viewed as reliable in any scientific or statistical context. It is barely better than anecdotal evidence.

I'm not even challenging Ron's statement that racial profiling exists as I'm sure it does. But causation is not correlation. Here's an article from the New York Times explaining some of the reasons for the disparity between AA as a % of the population vs. AA % of incarceration rates:

First, the police are at least in part guided by suspect descriptions. And the descriptions provided by victims already show a large racial gap: Nearly 30 percent of reported offenders were black. So if the police simply stopped suspects at a rate matching these descriptions, African-Americans would be encountering police at a rate close to both the arrest and the killing rates.

Second, the choice of where to police is mostly not up to individual officers. And police officers tend to be most active in poor neighborhoods, and African-Americans disproportionately live in poverty.

In fact, the deeper you look, the more it appears that the race problem revealed by the statistics reflects a larger problem: the structure of our society, our laws and policies.

The war on drugs illustrates this kind of racial bias. African-Americans are only slightly more likely to use drugs than whites. Yet, they are more than twice as likely to be arrested on drug-related charges. One reason is that drug sellers are being targeted more heavily than users. With fewer job options, low-income African-Americans have been disproportionately represented in the ranks of drug sellers. In addition, the drug laws penalize crack cocaine — a drug more likely to be used by African-Americans — far more harshly than powder cocaine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of-blacks-what-the-data-says.html?mcubz=1


This is overblown just as with most thing people grab on to and run with are.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I really like that snippet. I've said it before, but it wouldn't matter to me if I agreed with Trump's ideology 100%, his behavior, his personality would prevent me from supporting him no matter what.

The question of if it would be worse to have Pence (someone I disagree with much more than Trump, as I see the religious-right as the absolute worst of the worst as far as their policies and what they represent) take over if we got rid of Trump, I don't care. I would take Pence over Trump any day any time no questions asked. I can absolutely handle the fact that people I disagree with hold office. But there is a bar for character and competence that Trump does not clear. He is simply not qualified to be President of the United States.

Your perference for religious right over Trump is about to get sorely tested if/when Roy Moore (a certifiable Christian nationalist kook) and more like him are elected to the Senate.

But, I agree.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I couldn't get through this without laughing. Are any of the other studies you posted worthwhile? I mean, basing an analysis on a survey is pretty far reaching. It's pretty easy to write off the fact that certain groups are more prone to not answering a survey correctly.

If any of the other ones are actual concrete evidence then I'll read them.

Thats fine if you didnt like that one. I would care more about it if there were not 100s of studies that come to the same conclusion along with the fact that it is easy to see everyday on a personal level.

I dont know how you will feel about the others. I just threw out a few of the basic ones that were convenient to post. Self reporting data is generally fairly accurate but regardless many of the other studies are based on a variety of things.

It does not really matter if they are good or not. If you dont want to believe them you will find problems with them. There is no such thing as a perfect study.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Your perference for religious right over Trump is about to get sorely tested if/when Roy Moore (a certifiable Christian nationalist kook) and more like him are elected to the Senate.

But, I agree.

i prefer thta kook over pelosi, and shummer

not to mention maxine waters, who never heald a real job but somehow is very rich!

dont ge tme wrong moore is crazy vfor wanting to make homosexuality illegal. what conesnting adults do is none of my biezwack

 

[DutchJazzer]

lol raiders threw the game.

the offensive line refused to protect their quarterback!

 

[BTP]

Those racial discussions are not exclusive to America. In Germany it's similar mainly with Turks and Germans of Turkish descent. In France you'll find conversations regarding ppl originally from Marocco, Algeria and Tunesia.

In Germany though researches have shown that if you analyze wealth and social circumstances of criminals, foreigners are not more likely to be criminal, they are just more likely to be poor. Yet newspapers and TV channels love to play the race card when reporting on crime. Instead of limiting their reporting to data more relevant to crime like age, they feel a strong urge or are being asked to mention foreign roots if available to paint the scapegoat picture of the ungrateful guest/foreigner.

Yet the very same ppl who point their fingers on perceived migration problems are solely loving to talk about whats wrong and not engage in serious discussion about how to improve the situation for those ethnic and social groups who appear to produce more criminals.

 

[lauriandres]

Those racial discussions are not exclusive to America. In Germany it's similar mainly with Turks and Germans of Turkish descent. In France you'll find conversations regarding ppl originally from Marocco, Algeria and Tunesia.

In Germany though researches have shown that if you analyze wealth and social circumstances of criminals, foreigners are not more likely to be criminal, they are just more likely to be poor. Yet newspapers and TV channels love to play the race card when reporting on crime. Instead of limiting their reporting to data more relevant to crime like age, they feel a strong urge or are being asked to mention foreign roots if available to paint the scapegoat picture of the ungrateful guest/foreigner.

Yet the very same ppl who point their fingers on perceived migration problems are solely loving to talk about whats wrong and not engage in serious discussion about how to improve the situation for those ethnic and social groups who appear to produce more criminals.

Why is being poor considered as an excuse to violent behavior?
Why was it safe for a white guy to walk in most suffered areas after 2011 Tohoku earthquake in Japan without any fear from the locals while black dominated suburbs in Africa are still dangerous? I hope, that you are not saying "well, tsunami and earthquake are piece of cake compared to apartheid and poor blacks have every right to assualt tourists". During the Soviet Union occupation our country was poor compared to US and never-ever would i did not thought about assaulting a rich finnish or swedish tourist.
Even in US, why there are practically zero confrontations between whites and asians?
Why the asians do not try to mass migrate to Europe?

 

[BTP]

Why is being poor considered as an excuse to violent behavior?
Why was it safe for a white guy to walk in most suffered areas after 2011 Tohoku earthquake in Japan without any fear from the locals while black dominated suburbs in Africa are still dangerous? I hope, that you are not saying "well, tsunami and earthquake are piece of cake compared to apartheid and poor blacks have every right to assualt tourists". During the Soviet Union occupation our country was poor compared to US and never-ever would i did not thought about assaulting a rich finnish or swedish tourist.
Even in US, why there are practically zero confrontations between whites and asians?
Why the asians do not try to mass migrate to Europe?

Because the world is not black + white. Statistically speaking though if working doesn't give ppl what they want from work, or they can't find work in the first place then they're more likely to explore other avenues to make a living. It's not the same for everyone obviously, there are even cultural differences when it comes to cheating.
Psychologically it's very clear which common denominators exist when it comes to crime and poverty. The same theories are also valid for white collar crime.