It's Time For a True Direction

[Handlogten's Heros]

Right now is a pivot point. Much of what we have done in the last two years was to build around Hayward or with the assumption we needed to make him happy. He left us in a bad spot FA wise this year and we did really well with Thabo, Udoh, and Jonas, but it is time for us to take more control and be more intentional about how we are building.

We are in the middle right now... time to push up or down in a meaningful way... Rudy's injury justifies such action.

We don't really have cap space this year unless we move AB and one of Dante, Ricky, or one of the value contracts Thabo or Udoh. Could match in a trade on draft night, but don't see a "star" that would be available. So either take on money for next year (by trading JJ/Favs for guys on deals that expire in 2019) and get assets or work to move AB and Ricky or AB and Thabo/Udoh/Hood (for draft assets or young guys).

I'd like to see us really execute our plan instead of playing the middle with flexibility and re-tooling. I'd just like to see us push hard in one direction and don't see us going "win now". We can't tank much further than maybe 7-8th in the lottery this year... its just a frustrating place to see the current mix and the long-term direction is just so murky.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Build around Mitchell, Gobert and Exum.

Then hope that we can keep striking gold with later draft picks.

Try and figure out if Favor's, Hood and Rubio fit in. It's way too early to tell with those three. But we will have an idea by the trade deadline when a deal would actually happen anyways.

Gobert going down sucks and hurts a bit but if it's only a month that is great. It would also be nice if we got a chance to see Exum post all star this season but only if he is 100%.


On a side note when Gobert does come back we need to figure out how to get going to play harder. He has to block out, set hard screens, roll hard even when the ball isn't coming to him and get his hands better. All things he did very well last season but isn't doing as well this season due to effort.

We also need to run more pick and rolls with Favor's while Gobert positions himself at the top of the screen. Let Favor's make the right decision after receiving the ball if Goberts man or someone else's crashes on him. Even if Favor's gets a missed **** up Gobert will be unblocked for put backs. Also let both bigs crash for offensive boards more.

 

[MDAV28]

Build around Mitchell, Gobert and Exum.

Then hope that we can keep striking gold with later draft picks.

Try and figure out if Favor's, Hood and Rubio fit in. It's way too early to tell with those three. But we will have an idea by the trade deadline when a deal would actually happen anyways.

Gobert going down sucks and hurts a bit but if it's only a month that is great. It would also be nice if we got a chance to see Exum post all star this season but only if he is 100%.


On a side note when Gobert does come back we need to figure out how to get going to play harder. He has to block out, set hard screens, roll hard even when the ball isn't coming to him and get his hands better. All things he did very well last season but isn't doing as well this season due to effort.

We also need to run more pick and rolls with Favor's while Gobert positions himself at the top of the screen. Let Favor's make the right decision after receiving the ball if Goberts man or someone else's crashes on him. Even if Favor's gets a missed **** up Gobert will be unblocked for put backs. Also let both bigs crash for offensive boards more.

The key point here is trade deadline is the real pivot point. 3 months away. To me the real key piece in all of this is the decision they make with Hood. Typically, a player like Hood that could potentially get a bigger-than-market deal doesn't have much value BUT with how thin the cap situations are, he could net a real asset if the Jazz choose to move him and his rights at the trade deadline.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The key point here is trade deadline is the real pivot point. 3 months away. To me the real key piece in all of this is the decision they make with Hood. Typically, a player like Hood that could potentially get a bigger-than-market deal doesn't have much value BUT with how thin the cap situations are, he could net a real asset if the Jazz choose to move him and his rights at the trade deadline.

I don't think deals happen until December 15th when guys who were signed this year can also be traded. So the Pivot point isn't today, but in between now and the trade deadline I would love to see us pick a path and go.

 

[MDAV28]

I don't think deals happen until December 15th when guys who were signed this year can also be traded. So the Pivot point isn't today, but in between now and the trade deadline I would love to see us pick a path and go.

I think it's the same path then. As Ron Mexico said, figure out what we have in Rubio, Hood, Favors up until the trade deadline.

 

[Ron Mexico]

The key point here is trade deadline is the real pivot point. 3 months away. To me the real key piece in all of this is the decision they make with Hood. Typically, a player like Hood that could potentially get a bigger-than-market deal doesn't have much value BUT with how thin the cap situations are, he could net a real asset if the Jazz choose to move him and his rights at the trade deadline.

I agree, it is very unlikely Jazz make any moves until the trade deadline. The entire team preaches over and over from the FO to coaches to players that they are still figuring out how to play together, how to run this offense and that they will be good when they do. They are not going to give up early to make a crap trade. Which is usually the trades that happen before the trade deadline are desperate teams. Jazz are not going to be desperate, thats not their style. Unless a player demands a trade but I doubt any player on our team right now will, at least a significant player.


I also agree Hood is a pivotal player. He has been really up and down so far. But he is our leading scorer this season and I expect his per game scoring to go up as he gets in a rhythm. I think if he has not found consistency he might be traded. If he finds consistency and Jazz feel like its worth it to pay him and he can keep up the scoring they will keep him. Im glad the Jazz dont have to make a decision on him right now because its too hard. We will have a much better idea at the trade deadline, especially if he can stay healthy. Although health concerns might be a reason they trade him if not.

 

[bigmike]

I think it's too early for any kind of "strategic" tank approach. We're, what, 13 games in? We're half a game out of the 8 spot right now, and frankly, we've played like crap (though the schedule has been favorable).

Personally, I'll reassess after 20-25 games. Rudy going down really sucks, because he is central to any additional improvements this team will make, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet.

 

[NUMBERICA]

How the **** people could mention Exum in the same breath as Gobert and Mitchell is totally mystifying.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Anyway, I kinda disagree with the idea that the highest the Jazz could tank to is 7th or 8th. We're talking about the Western Conference here, and the Jazz are going to be figuring out who they are, again, in 4-6 weeks.

I agree the Jazz need to do something.

 

[Archie Moses]

Anyway, I kinda disagree with the idea that the highest the Jazz could tank to is 7th or 8th. We're talking about the Western Conference here, and the Jazz are going to be figuring out who they are, again, in 4-6 weeks.

I agree the Jazz need to do something.

Did you, by chance, see Exum's noticeable improvement at the end of last year and his performance during summer ball? Not only did his game get better, but so did his aggressiveness and leadership. He was having a blast tearing it up with Mitchell. Keep in mimd, he's only a year older than Mitchell. Injuries are Exum's weakness not his potential, improvement and living up to his draft pick.

Time will tell, I guess.

[video=youtube_share;2Boy0I2CBqA]https://youtu.be/2Boy0I2CBqA

 

[str8line]

Right now is a pivot point. Much of what we have done in the last two years was to build around Hayward or with the assumption we needed to make him happy. He left us in a bad spot FA wise this year and we did really well with Thabo, Udoh, and Jonas, but it is time for us to take more control and be more intentional about how we are building.

We are in the middle right now... time to push up or down in a meaningful way... Rudy's injury justifies such action.

We don't really have cap space this year unless we move AB and one of Dante, Ricky, or one of the value contracts Thabo or Udoh. Could match in a trade on draft night, but don't see a "star" that would be available. So either take on money for next year (by trading JJ/Favs for guys on deals that expire in 2019) and get assets or work to move AB and Ricky or AB and Thabo/Udoh/Hood (for draft assets or young guys).

I'd like to see us really execute our plan instead of playing the middle with flexibility and re-tooling. I'd just like to see us push hard in one direction and don't see us going "win now". We can't tank much further than maybe 7-8th in the lottery this year... its just a frustrating place to see the current mix and the long-term direction is just so murky.

As I mentioned in another thread, Rudy's going down might be seen as a fortuitous milestone in hindsight.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Did you, by chance, see Exum's noticeable improvement at the end of last year and his performance during summer ball? Not only did his game get better, but so did his aggressiveness and leadership. He was having a blast tearing it up with Mitchell. Keep in mimd, he's only a year older than Mitchell. Injuries are Exum's weakness not his potential, improvement and living up to his draft pick.

Time will tell, I guess.

[video=youtube_share;2Boy0I2CBqA]https://youtu.be/2Boy0I2CBqA

His development doesn't just hit pause because he's injured, it changes his outlook as he's not on the floor developing his game. There's no way it doesn't stunt him, and I know some will scoff at this, but I just think the way he moves is a problem. He plays in this weird curled posture and if I'm playing doctor, I think it reveals something not good.

Besides the physical damage and the stunting of his development, we're talking about a player that's always been scared of the rim and contact, and he's now had two season-ending injuries by going into the paint.

And point blank, you look at the metrics, he's just not been good at playing NBA basketball. Point blank.

So yeah, maybe he becomes good, but at this point, assuming that will come true is pretty foolish, and could border on irresponsible depending on what's decided from that point (not including him in a deal that could make the team better, overpaying).

Exum is not in my calculations going forward pretty much at all. If he pans out at some point, great. Some will disagree about that. But, to say his name in the same breath as Mitchell and Gobert is madness.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Anyway, I kinda disagree with the idea that the highest the Jazz could tank to is 7th or 8th. We're talking about the Western Conference here, and the Jazz are going to be figuring out who they are, again, in 4-6 weeks.

I agree the Jazz need to do something.

I just figured there is no way we can lose more than Atlanta, Chicago, Sacramento, Dallas, BKN, Phoenix and the Lakers... maybe the lakers, BKN, and Phoenix could win more if we are just trading all our pieces holding Gobert out and really obviously tanking.

I think we'd be moving from 12 ish to 8ish but might have a chance to have our number pulled. Not a huge difference but we'd have an actual shot at top 3 versus basically no chance.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I just figured there is no way we can lose more than Atlanta, Chicago, Sacramento, Dallas, BKN, Phoenix and the Lakers... maybe the lakers, BKN, and Phoenix could win more if we are just trading all our pieces holding Gobert out and really obviously tanking.

I think we'd be moving from 12 ish to 8ish but might have a chance to have our number pulled. Not a huge difference but we'd have an actual shot at top 3 versus basically no chance.

And yeah, didn't they expand the lottery odds downwards, too?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And yeah, didn't they expand the lottery odds downwards, too?

That starts in 2019. This year is status quo.

 

[NUMBERICA]

That starts in 2019. This year is status quo.

****.

 

[Getting Traded]

His development doesn't just hit pause because he's injured, it changes his outlook as he's not on the floor developing his game. There's no way it doesn't stunt him, and I know some will scoff at this, but I just think the way he moves is a problem. He plays in this weird curled posture and if I'm playing doctor, I think it reveals something not good.

Besides the physical damage and the stunting of his development, we're talking about a player that's always been scared of the rim and contact, and he's now had two season-ending injuries by going into the paint.

And point blank, you look at the metrics, he's just not been good at playing NBA basketball. Point blank.

So yeah, maybe he becomes good, but at this point, assuming that will come true is pretty foolish, and could border on irresponsible depending on what's decided from that point (not including him in a deal that could make the team better, overpaying).

Exum is not in my calculations going forward pretty much at all. If he pans out at some point, great. Some will disagree about that. But, to say his name in the same breath as Mitchell and Gobert is madness.

I have to agree with this about his susceptibility to injury. When I posted a similar concern, I got blasted by the Aussies on here. I think you make some valid points here in a more convincing manner than I did.

 

[hgb]

How many high draft picks really turn into real difference makers? I don't think it's that many, and tanking (even if it just means trading the Joe Johnsons of the world for picks) has a significant cost, since you get lots and lots of uninteresting games, fewer people in the arena, which means less general interest in the team.

Let's say we tank well and good and end up with guys like Aaron Gordon, Marcus Smart, etc, that doesn't make your team great. Nice players, doesn't help. You need too much luck for a tank to pan out, I don't think it's worth it. And it's very un-Jazz.

 

[mellow]

Has Dennis Lindsey spoke recently? I don't recall seeing him quoted in an article or post since before the season started.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

How many high draft picks really turn into real difference makers? I don't think it's that many, and tanking (even if it just means trading the Joe Johnsons of the world for picks) has a significant cost, since you get lots and lots of uninteresting games, fewer people in the arena, which means less general interest in the team.

Let's say we tank well and good and end up with guys like Aaron Gordon, Marcus Smart, etc, that doesn't make your team great. Nice players, doesn't help. You need too much luck for a tank to pan out, I don't think it's worth it. And it's very un-Jazz.

Aaron Gordon would be great with us and would be part of our core 1000% so that's a bad example.

Or we could end up with Klay Thompson or Steph Curry or a team falls in love with someone in the top 8 and offers a god father offer for the pick like Boston offered Charlotte a few years ago.

Every way of acquiring all star talent is a low probability venture. You have a better chance at 8 than you do at 13... only a 10% chance of moving into the top 3 but better than a zero percent chance (basically).

I'm just hoping to see a real direction and us acquiring parts consistent with that direction. If tanking is part of that then great... if it is acquiring assets or young talent then fine.