So without socially prescribed gender norms, the transgender wouldn't exist?
The Honesty of Transgender Identity
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So without socially prescribed gender norms, the transgender wouldn't exist?
To clarify: if males and females had no behavioral expectations, would anyone still undergo sex change?
Archie Moses
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I'm guessing this would be a depends thing.
On what? If the issue is a mismatch between sex and behavioral expectations of associated gender, removing the latter should end the mismatch.
Archie Moses
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I agree.
I also think people would still feel they are born in the wrong body too, regardless of gender expectations. I could be completely wrong on this too.
Darkwing Duck
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That's the biggest question, or "concern," if you will, about transgenderism in general and why I have difficulty combining it so readily with homosexuality. I mean, gays and lesbians have gender roles, too, or have at least developed some in western society over time. Gay males are tended to be looked at as more sensitive and more readily able to commiserate and sympathize with emotional issues of women. That's a gender role.
What I question is when, I'll use trans women as an example, say they identify as a woman, would that change if that person existed in the 50's, lets say, or the nineteenth century? Would that person identify with the gender role of a woman at that point in time?
Today's society emphasizes less cultural dimorphism among the genders, so it's easier to identify with a different gender. Superficially, it looked somewhat cosmetic from an outsider's perspective. A male wants to be a women to wear the clothing and makeup associated with a woman because what's the difference in gender roles between men and women now outside of those superficial identity markers? I do not know, and wouldn't claim to, the studies done on a specific sex "feeling" like the opposite sex. To be honest, I'm not sure what "feeling" being a male is. The only clues I have to that is what society says is desirable of one who prescribes oneself as a "man." I'll never be in a position where I feel I'm missing a reproductive part or have one I shouldn't. I've heard that's how some (not all) who are transgender describe it.
There ends up being two factors at play that are generally different spectrally amongst those who would come across as transgender. How one's biology and impulses in the brain don't necessary agree, and how one wishes to fulfill the acceptable gender roles that exist in the society one lives in.
Darkwing Duck
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I imagine that would go into the first factor that I just finished typing out before I saw your clarification. My inclination would be yes, but I wouldn't know the difference between what exists today and the hypothetical you provide.
MVP
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I think they would. If you feel that you are a women trapped in mans body... you want boobs and p....y and you must hate all the male parts as well.
But that would mean it has nothing to do with gender. It's just about sex. I know the brain has a map of the body. That's why people who lost their limbs often feel like they have a "phantom" limb. The map points in the brain are still there, but the limb is gone.
@Darkwing Duck is it possible that transgender is simply the rejection of one's physical sex characteristics (genitals and body shape) due to a mismatch between the body's brain map and the body itself? Or perhaps due to some other neurological abnormality? Maybe it has nothing to do with gender, and we're projecting our own biases into the phenomenon?
p.s. I also don't know what it means to feel like a man or a woman. I've often wondered about that. I don't feel manliness or gender in general is a large part of my life.
MVP
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Wait, so I think I get it now. Transsexual is a person who underwent sex change, means for example male got his ********* and penis removed and fake vagina created by surgeon.. transgender just associates with other gender but may not alter his genitals to match his identity right? Still may have his male parts but dresses as woman and identifies as woman?
Darkwing Duck
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I don't think I would be comfortable describing transgenderism into one simple description.
I would make the hypothesis that being transgender is in fact more of a choice than those who identify as transgender would lead others, and even themselves to believe.
I am also more comfortable stating that the main reason those that are transgender would be upset at that idea of choice is that it is used extremely pejoratively in popular use, which tries to have an effect of delegitimizing the individual. Religion was brought up earlier. One "chooses," in most cases, especially in western culture, to be religious, anti-religious, and everything in between, and that is accepted as being a defining characteristic of that person. The same courtesy generally isn't provided to transgenderism.
I guess to wrap back around to the original question, I think in individual cases, the answer to one or all three of your items could be yes. I do not and would not even begin to guess the percentages to the questions. If I could repurpose the question, "Are people transgender because of biological, neurological, or cultural reasons?" I would answer, "Yes. All three."
That's why there's no easy answer and why even with a spectrum, homosexuality (or any other unusual sexual attraction), as a cultural device, is so much easier to define and analyze.
I would make the hypothesis that being transgender is in fact more of a choice than those who identify as transgender would lead others, and even themselves to believe.
I am also more comfortable stating that the main reason those that are transgender would be upset at that idea of choice is that it is used extremely pejoratively in popular use, which tries to have an effect of delegitimizing the individual. Religion was brought up earlier. One "chooses," in most cases, especially in western culture, to be religious, anti-religious, and everything in between, and that is accepted as being a defining characteristic of that person. The same courtesy generally isn't provided to transgenderism.
I guess to wrap back around to the original question, I think in individual cases, the answer to one or all three of your items could be yes. I do not and would not even begin to guess the percentages to the questions. If I could repurpose the question, "Are people transgender because of biological, neurological, or cultural reasons?" I would answer, "Yes. All three."
That's why there's no easy answer and why even with a spectrum, homosexuality (or any other unusual sexual attraction), as a cultural device, is so much easier to define and analyze.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Many trans- terms have come in and out of style, especially from those that currently identify as transgender. As I currently understand it, transgender is the catch all for all the things you mentioned and any other term is generally considered insulting. I believe that's in popular use. From an academic standpoint, what you describe would probably be described as acceptable, if not somewhat outdated given popular use.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
I think that's a good way of looking at things. I think most people would characterize my atheism as a choice I made even though it's not really that simple. Like, I couldn't just on a whim decide to start believing in gods or whatever, not if I wanted to continue to be honest with myself. At the same time though it's not like I've got an atheism gene or anything, I had some level of agency in it.
Society is a giant construct in itself.
I’d agree that the social constructs and discriminatory policies are rooted from the ‘nature’ of people constantly wanting more regardless the effect on others, but, naturally, people with the most advantageous positions will shape these constructs and exploit groups they do not belong to. Also, it is certainly governmental in many instances. A big example is looking into the history of racism in America. One will discover rules and policies specifically designed to keep indigent people of different cultures and races from aligning for fear of upsetting the establishment. Howard Zinn wrote about that a lot.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
What has Jones done to deserve jail time, btw? I read a little more about him today and watched some YouTube videos. The guy is a nut for sure.
Reminds me of a Kids In The Hall sketch.
cows (and bulls) aren't so queer as some of us.
uhhhmmmm…...Alex Jones has heard of phytoestrogens like BPA..... sorta like some greenies who worry about the measurement of the distance between the anus and genitalia.
We had a craze about baby formula some decades ago, turned out to be more powerfully estrogenic than normal levels of estrogens.
That's why we have a gay epidemic going on today, biochemically-speaking. The actual maleness of the species is measurably reduced.
The females are also affected by the extra estrogenic chemicals. Some say it is the reason for the breast cancer (estrogen +) epidemic. Means scientists know incidence is related to estrogen, so they administer anti-estrogenic stuff in treatment to prevent recurrence.
yah, Alex Jones saw a marketing op. John Birch Society lit and health nut stuff.
America has a long tradition with snake oil sales. As American as apple pie, as is humor.
Being Banned in Boston has always been worth millions in sales.
uhhhmmmm…...Alex Jones has heard of phytoestrogens like BPA..... sorta like some greenies who worry about the measurement of the distance between the anus and genitalia.
We had a craze about baby formula some decades ago, turned out to be more powerfully estrogenic than normal levels of estrogens.
That's why we have a gay epidemic going on today, biochemically-speaking. The actual maleness of the species is measurably reduced.
The females are also affected by the extra estrogenic chemicals. Some say it is the reason for the breast cancer (estrogen +) epidemic. Means scientists know incidence is related to estrogen, so they administer anti-estrogenic stuff in treatment to prevent recurrence.
yah, Alex Jones saw a marketing op. John Birch Society lit and health nut stuff.
America has a long tradition with snake oil sales. As American as apple pie, as is humor.
Being Banned in Boston has always been worth millions in sales.
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would be funnier if some people didn't worry about him telling the truth. AI is one of his big themes.... the globalist elite downsizing real humanity while upgrading themselves with high-tech "mortality cures" and seamlessly integrating AI into their decrepit brains Dunno, maybe it will help. Whaddya think?
I think it's a push between Jones and CNN.
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