Because of his awesome W-L record? Oh wait........
NFL Talk
- Thread starter KatieMCR
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Or could it be his constant choking when plays need to be made.... oh wait....
If I'm the Broncos GM or Owner I'm starting Tebow and seeing if I have anything. At least you will know and can move on if you don't. Otherwise you are playing Orton, going 8-8 at best, missing the playoffs, and going to be stuck with possibly nothing (Saying that Tebow starts the following year) for another year. I throw Tebow in and roll with the punches. Is he going to put up as good as numbers as Orton (Which isn't saying that much), possibly not, but you get the kid experience and see if you want to go QB in the next few years vs. prolonging the process.
Agreed. At least if Tebow sucks they will get a high draft pick (possible Andrew Luck or Oklahoma QB?).
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
The Henne boo'ing also bothered me. I like the fact that Miami didn't pay a steep price to get Orton. IMO he's not even a lock to beat Henne out on the depth chart. It's been reported that the major snag in an Orton deal was the fact that he wanted a big contract extension with Miami. With Andrew Luck, Landry Jones, and Matt Barkley all being available in next years draft (just to name a few), why in the world would you want to be chained long-term to Kyle Freakin' Orton?
For me, the Dolphins going with Henne in 2012 is a win/win. Either he delivers on all of that potential and we're pleasantly suprised, or he comes up short which probably means Miami is picking in the top half of the draft with the realistic shot at landing a really good QB prospect.
Miami's Defense was already Top 10 in 2011 and should only be stronger this year. There's also no lack of offensive playmakers. If Henne stops throwing INTS, Miami could actually suprise alot of people.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
He has a lifetime starting record of 32-30. That's a winning record despite being just 3-10 last year on a God awful team (he doesn't play defense) with Tim Tebow in his rearview and average offensive weapons. Brandon Lloyd was a monster yes, but let's remember this is still Brandon Lloyd. Before last season that means Orton was 29-20 as a starter. Most of his years were with the Bears who annually have some of the worst receivers/weapons in the league. Granted, the Bears defense were what won games there but the flipside is he also didn't lose them the games which for someone that young, is impressive. His 71-48 td/interception ratio isn't bad either. Heck, I would guess it's better than average in the league. His lifetime qb rating seems average at 79.6 but again, you take away those first two years in Chicago where he had awful weapons and an environment where they didn't necessarily want him to succeed (just not to fail), and it jumps up to about 84.5 over the last three years which isn't so bad. His rating of 87.5 was good for 15th in the league last year. This was better than Jay Cutler, Eli Manning, Carson Palmer, Donovan McNabb, Matt Hasselbeck and Brett Favre. It was also less than five points behind Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Matt Ryan. Not bad.
Look, he's not Brees or Manning or Brady. That's obvious. But he has a winning record as a starter despite having a 3-10 year last year, has a solid td-int ratio, and to me looks like a qb when he plays. He has a quick release, solid arm strength, and most of all, looks like a qb when he plays, not someone who's trying to play qb. I think if he's put in the right situation and matures some as a leader, he could take a team deep into the playoffs much like Trent Dilfer or Matt Hasselbeck have done. Keep in mind, he's been in awful offensive situations (before Denver) and now has no defense in Denver to help him out. Also, keep in mind that he's just 28 and his about to hit the peak of his career. Again, he's no stud but for me, he's maybe the most underrated qb in the game right now.
Not a bad response and can see your points but......
Some are incorrect and you shows you haven't watched much of Orton in either Chicago or Denver (Maybe Denver a bit last year from the sounds of it).
All the 'big' throws, 'big' drives needed to be made, INT's at the WORST times = Kyle Orton. That is the reason he was hated in Chicago and gets no respect in Denver. His numbers were ok last year but then you pretty much respond the opposite to yourself when you say a bad team in Denver last year. So he has good numbers on a bad team (Behind a bunch = throwing a bunch) and puts up good numbers (From your comment) on this bad team. You want to keep the good numbers but then also remove the bad season.
Now agreeing with you on some points in the 2nd paragraph - good comparisons to Dilfer and Hasselbeck. Would almost compare him to an older Joe Flacco as well - decent numbers in the regular season but wrong decisions in the playoffs and when it counts (End of games).
I guess it comes down to what you consider underrated. Anyone under lets say a top 10 QB? 15?
I wouldn't say underrated but maybe just an 'average' or 'run of the mill' type QB - one that isn't going to wow you, make the plays at the end of the game, ect. but one that is going to put up decent numbers on an average team for the most part, needing to be carried by the defense but only to a certain level (Him in Chicago, Flacco in Baltimore, ect)
I'm rooting for Henne as a Michigan fan but he is pretty much in the same boat that I think the Broncos need to start with Tebow, the Browns with McCoy, and a few other teams that probably need to stick the QB out there to see if they are the QB of the future or not so they can reload if needed. I think Henne has the tools to be a good starting QB in this league but will he ever be a star? Probably not but if you build an above average D and give him some consistant weapons then I think he could take a team deep into the playoffs. He does have to cut down on the mistakes but another year in the offense should help. Miami losing both Vets in the backfield could hurt though but they are turning the reins over - has to be done - and RB (With the shelf life now a days) needs to be done if you feel you have a piece in place.
I just think of not too many years back when the Steelers had Parker. One injury and all the sudden they are drafting Mende in the 1st round. They made the decision after a few games and an injury to just go with Mende as the #1. Worked out well for them and no reason, with the good line that Miami has, that they can't do the same. The only concern is the leader of that Offense was already established (Big Ben/Ward) and not sure if Henne is there. Doubt you want Marshall being the voice of that offense so who is it? Long?
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Fair points. Keep in mind, he's played less than four full seasons worth of games though and young qb's always make mistakes. A lot of them. And while he'll be 29 this season, he doesn't have a ton of games under his belt and can still mature a little more, perhaps learn from his mistakes, and in my opinion, in the right opportunity, with a solid coordinator for three or four straight years, the kid could semi-flourish.
I like the Flacco comparison. I actually thought about mentioning him too. And again, keep in mind, some guys mature, learn the position more year to year, and get over the hump later on, ala Rich Gannon. Heck, you mention Flacco as if he's just some ho hum qb, but in his first three years he's won three road playoff games while Matt Ryan's won no playoff games yet the latter is the semi-anointed one. I realize it's apples to oranges because Flacco has that Raven defense behind him but still. His career qb rating is close to 88, a couple points higher than Donovan McNabb's career figure.
I suppose my point is that you can only win so many playoff games. There is only one ultimate winner each year. It took Peyton years and years to finally make the Super Bowl and win it all. Eight long years to be exact. Was he a bum though? Is Flacco because he hasn't gotten the Ravens to the Bowl after just three years? Is Orton? I'm not saying Orton's as good a qb as Manning or Flacco. He's not in my opinion. But you get my point. While Orton makes bad mistakes in bad moments, many younger qb's do, and the fact is despite all those mistakes, and below average "weapons" over the course of his career, he still has a career winning record. The awful defenses in Denver and great ones in Chicago are basically a wash so with average defenses over the course of his career and mediocre skill players, a winning record is fairly impressive to me. Who does the most with less is what it comes down to. And he's done a pretty good job in that regard.
I'll just add this. He was in a bad situation in Chicago, much like Dilfer in Baltimore or to a lesser degree Jason Campbell in Washington, where they didn't want him to screw up and lose the game for the team. The playcalling was always very simple and vanilla and low risk, low reward. In my opinion, that in no way, shape or form allows a young qb, to flourish and develop their skills. Sure, Dilfer won a Super Bowl. But not because of him. Hell, in Baltimore's eyes, it was in spite of him so they replaced him the next year with Grbac. With Orton they did the same, but once he moved on to Denver and had a playcaller who tried to teach him and let him loose, he did much, much better. I think this is similar to Campbell whose poise and arm strength, etcetera, I've always liked. I've always felt that in the right situation, he could pull a Dilfer.
Again, these guys aren't great but to me, they're underrated and underappreciated. Perhaps I'm not being fully objective and slightly overrating them too. We all probably do that with guys. For me, these are the qb's I'd put ahead of him, in no particular order.
Rodgers
Brady
P. Manning
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Vick
Romo
E. Manning
Schaub
Flacco
Ryan
Bradford
Cutler
Freeman
Cassell
Girrard
Orton
This isn't some exact order but these are pretty much the guys I would put ahead of Orton, bringing him in as the 18th best qb in the league, give or take. I suppose you could or should put McNabb and Sanchez ahead of him too, which would knock him down to 20th but I guess that's my point. 20th is a low ranking and I find Orton be a more capable qb than that and therefore underrated. If it's even possible, I also find Rivers underrated. What he did last year with those receivers was unfreakin' real.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Sticking a qb out there just to do so or to see what you have is not always a bright move. It worked for Aikman and Peyton. It doesn't work for many more than that though. Young qb's seem to succeed more when playing the backup for a year or two and truly learning the system, the terminology, the speed of the game (in practice and film), and how to be a professional. McNabb sat for about 10 games. I think McNair sat for a full year. Rodgers sat for a number of years. Rivers sat. The list goes on and on. I of course have no data to prove my belief and I realize that Tebow has sat about as much as McNair or McNabb who I mentioned. However, here's my take. Sometimes these guys aren't quite ready for that pressure of being the man, or don't know the ins and outs of the playbook, and they need to acclimate a bit longer. Personally, I think McCoy could handle being a starter. The expectations aren't huge there and his weapons are mediocre at best. I don't feel that way about Tebow though. The microscope on him is enormous and with average weapons and an awful defense, he's not in the best situation to succeed. He likely wouldn't and I'm not sure that's his fault. Yet, the blame would be heavily placed on his shoulders. For me, Denver needs to let those young receivers develop a little more, let the defense improve a little more, and most of all, let Tim continue to work on his mechanics and learning the playbook a bit longer. If Orton and the team start off 2-5, then sure, put Tim in. But not just yet in my opinion.
//r00t 4 Jazz
Well-Known Member
Salmon, I agree with and was thinking that Dilfer was a good comparison for Orton and while I understand the underrated feeling due to the fact no team seemingly wants to keep him at the same time I can't blame a team (like Miami) not giving up a lot to get him. I would also compare him to the old Miami QB Jay Fiedler he got the Phins to a couple of playoff appearances after Marino retired (sadly Fiedler is probably the best QB they've had since Marino retired) but he's not a guy that can win you games especially in the playoffs.
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
Alot of solid points.
However, I don't think Miami is waiting too long on Henne. He did sit as a back-up for most of his first year and he's actually shown himself to be quite capable as an NFL starter. The question with Henne is whether or not he can cut down on his INTs and progress beyond his first 1 or 2 reads.
All the other intangibles are there. If his decision making improves, Miami has a pretty good QB.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
Miami is going to have a hard time making any QB look good with Brian Daboll at OC.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Too funny. I was actually going to compare him to Fiedler too. I was a Miami fan when he was there and I loved the guy. When they made the playoffs, it was their great defense that buckled more than anything else. Thomas, Taylor, Surtain, that other other corner (was it Buckley?), they all crumbled.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I never mentioned Henne and I agree with you.
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
Understood. I was just applying Henne to the example of waiting too long on a QB.
And Brownnotes, the Daboll hire made me sick when it happened. I'm still unhappy with it, but after an offseason to dwell on it I've decided to take a wait and see approach. Aside from Hillis, he had next to nothing to work with. Especially at QB. Delhome has been done for awhile and while I know that some Browns fans are excited about McCoy, I don't share their excitement.
So far, Miami players are giving really positive feedback about Daboll. Who know's if it's all lip service or what, but I do know one thing: At least he's not Dan Henning.
Ok so my post didn't make it through and I'm not retyping it.
Take a look at this list and notice how many of the 'top' QB's waited a few years to sit and wait and learn.
Rodgers
Brady
P. Manning
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Vick
Romo
E. Manning
Schaub
Flacco
Ryan
Bradford
Cutler
Freeman
Cassell
Girrard
Orton
With the money in the game now teams can't afford to pay a high priced QB to ride the bench. Throw him in there, get him experience, and find out if he is the QB of your team for the next 8 to 10 years. If not, start the cycle over again with another QB.
Take a look at this list and notice how many of the 'top' QB's waited a few years to sit and wait and learn.
Rodgers
Brady
P. Manning
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Vick
Romo
E. Manning
Schaub
Flacco
Ryan
Bradford
Cutler
Freeman
Cassell
Girrard
Orton
With the money in the game now teams can't afford to pay a high priced QB to ride the bench. Throw him in there, get him experience, and find out if he is the QB of your team for the next 8 to 10 years. If not, start the cycle over again with another QB.
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
Any Charger fans on the board? Looking for some thoughts on ILB Kevin Burnett. The Phins signed him to play alongside Karlos Dansby and cut Channing Crowder in the process. Just going off of Burnett's stats, he's an instant upgrade (Crowder is a slug).
There is such a thing as a Chargers fan?
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
More and more has been coming out regarding Mangini's coaching. It has not been good. Perhaps Daboll is innocent but I doubt it. The fact is, nobody talked to, gave reps to, or otherwise prepped Colt for the first Steelers game whatsoever. Even if Mangini wanted some sort of subterfuge Daboll should have done something to coach up Colt. But no, nothing. I don't care who your head coach is. If you're the OC and you know your top two QBs are hurt you better have something to do with the QB you have left. Colt played like a demon in that game as it turns out but he had zero prep.
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
I'm more concerned about the X's and O's that Daboll is bringing to the table. If camp is any indication, Miami's offense is looking much more aggressive than it did under Henning, and more importantly, it's also looking much more aggressive than Daboll's offense in Cleveland. How much of a role did Mangini have in dumbing down Cleveland's offense? It remains to be seen, but so far the offensive players in Miami seemed to be really excited Daboll and his offense.