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This guy is Mormon?

JazzSpazz said:
It's hard to "understand" when your intent, or approach is to find fault or scoff and scorn.
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I will probably never understand because I have never understood, and upon learning more of the church's history on this matter it left such a bad taste in my mouth I quickly gave up on my LDS apologism. So I think it's fair to say I will probably never understand.

And for a creator that is omnipotent and omniscient, why change anything you do or think? What is right and what isn't can't change and there would be no incentive to change it. Whether that's instituting a ban on bestowing the priesthood based purely on racial criteria, or whether that's reversing it.

I am an atheist if that wasn't already known. May more negative rep flow my way.
 
Beantown said:
It never was doctrine, it was something he wrote in a book.
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Well now, it was an explanation of something that was doctrine, undeniably, since it was also a policy of the church for many years, that of denying blacks the priesthood. We can try to forget the racist things prophets said by saying they were putting a few of their opinions into the doctrine without consulting God about it, but to deny a policy our church upheld and defended for many years as not being doctrine is counterproductive. Instead, we should embrace it as part of our heritage, our history! :) Let the world know that we have nothing to hide. We used to be racist, and now we aren't. Can you imagine how many members would want to join our church and embrace our doctrine if we told the truth?

- Craig :D :D
 
NUMBERICA said:
I don't understand how you can't blame the church for having a 100+ year legacy of racism. These are the prophets and presidents that say they confer with god directly and make DOCTRINAL proclamations in his name. The church started and continue to use the above guy's name for the name of their highest institution of learning on top of that. How CAN you separate them?

If this is just Brigham Young being a total ******* in god's name, is that a ticket to spirit prison, outer darkness, or does he still go to the celestial kingdom because of his namesake? Maybe spirit prison and THEN celestial glory? I'd love to hear the thoughts on this if Young, F. Smith, Taylor, etc were just acting on their own accord in god's name and instituting and furthering a doctrine and policy as such.
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From Adam til now there has never been a perfect prophet, nor will ever be one. Brighamm Young was a product of his time. He did wonders for the church but I believe he made mistakes along the way. Just as know there are church leaders that make mistakes. But they have nothing to do with my spiritually or salvation. I also don't judge them either but I'm aware they are not perfect nor are they suppose to be.
 
These aren't small mistakes. For whatever reason, I guess God had a real love affair with the worst secretaries imaginable.


God: Tell everyone my love is unending and there is eternal salvation for any that should seek it.

Young: Oh, blacks can't have the priesthood because of a curse, it shall never be lifted, or it shall under ridiculous conditions, blacks are uncouth, uncomely, of sub-human intelligence, and wild, and if you marry interracially god will strike you down? Got it. Crystal.

God: ... (for 130 years) Oh, sorry! I was busy. Brigham, you heard me wrong. Brigham?

Kimball: I'm here, sir.

God: Oh, yes, well, every male is to have the opportunity to earn the priesthood.

OR

God: Remember how the restorer of the one true gospel gave the priesthood to two black guys?

Young: Yeah.

God: Just kidding. They're grand-fathered in, they're cool, but you can't let any other black guys have the priesthood.

Young: Why not?

God: Because Cain slew Abel 6,000 years ago.

Young: Okay, that's cool. But why now suddenly? This was never a specific policy before, and even if it was, did it just slip your mind in those many direct conversations with President Smith?

God: Don't worry about it. That's just how it is, and how it will be forever or somewhere pretty close to it.

Young: Okay.



I'm pretty bummed if these are the best answers the arbiter of creation and his chosen mouth-piece(s) have for us.
 
NUMBERICA said:
These aren't small mistakes. For whatever reason, I guess God had a real love affair with the worst secretaries imaginable.


God: Tell everyone my love is unending and there is eternal salvation for any that should seek it.

Young: Oh, blacks can't have the priesthood because of a curse, it shall never be lifted, or it shall under ridiculous conditions, blacks are uncouth, uncomely, of sub-human intelligence, and wild, and if you marry interracially god will strike you down? Got it. Crystal.

God: ... (for 130 years) Oh, sorry! I was busy. Brigham, you heard me wrong. Brigham?

Kimball: I'm here, sir.

God: Oh, yes, well, every male is to have the opportunity to earn the priesthood.

OR

God: Remember how the restorer of the one true gospel gave the priesthood to two black guys?

Young: Yeah.

God: Just kidding. They're grand-fathered in, they're cool, but you can't let any other black guys have the priesthood.

Young: Why not?

God: Because Cain slew Abel 6,000 years ago.

Young: Okay, that's cool. But why now suddenly? This was never a specific policy before, and even if it was, did it just slip your mind in those many direct conversations with President Smith?

God: Don't worry about it. That's just how it is, and how it will be forever or somewhere pretty close to it.

Young: Okay.



I'm pretty bummed if these are the best answers the arbiter of creation and his chosen mouth-piece(s) have for us.
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-To clarify a male does not have need the priesthood to reach heaven.

-I don't think you believe in the Bible but there are many examples of people or tribes being unable to have the priesthood.

-I don't claim to know why African American males were not allowed to have the priesthood though I have personal theories about it, also you could be arguing for women right now to have the priesthood as they are not allowed to have it

-All I know is that since beginning of man there have been races, tribes, people, sexes....etc....that were not allowed to carry the priesthood. It has nothing to do with salvation as every living human has the opportunity for salvation.
 
Beantown said:
Scriptures are the only place I get church doctrine from.
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Official statements by General Authorities = scripture, no? And while "Mormon Doctrine" may not have been an official church document, it was written by a highly respected member of the 12, Bruce R. McConkie. Anyway, whatevs, I try not to judge people based on the communities (dogmatic or otherwise) that they belong to, but rather on how they treat others. Most Mormons are pretty decent (in my experience) most of the time. meh.
 
Beantown said:
-To clarify a male does not have need the priesthood to reach heaven.
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What about for those who want to one day have their own worlds and spirit children? Would the priesthood not be necessary for these functions? It seems to me, while attaining the Celestial Kingdom night not require the priesthood, attaining the highest glory within the Celestial Kingdom, if you're male, does. Now, since the doctrine has changed, I'm guessing the priesthood can be conferred on all those who died without it (that is, black Mormons who didn't receive the priesthood while alive). Had the doctrine not changed, however, it's safe to say this would not be the case.

Look, you can believe what you want. You can believe that God hates ****, *******, Jews, women, whatever. You can believe that some people, based on whatever criteria you choose, are inferior/superior to others. I don't care. Just own it, and, while you're living at least, treat people with the respect ALL men are due.

edit: Along with being forbidden from holding the priesthood, African-American members could not receive temple ordinances, thus, as stated above, achieve the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom (or, you know, be sealed to their spouse(s)).
 
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GVC said:
edit: Along with being forbidden from holding the priesthood, African-American members could not receive temple ordinances, thus, as stated above, achieve the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom (or, you know, be sealed to their spouse(s)).
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It's my understanding that once they enter God's presence they are given the opportunity to receive all the blessings that they did not receive while on earth.
 
Scat said:
It's my understanding that once they enter God's presence they are given the opportunity to receive all the blessings that they did not receive while on earth.
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I would have guessed that to be the doctrine now, but that was not the doctrine pre-1978 FWIW.
 
and I'm not posting this for any other reason than to correct beantown. As I said before, believe what you like. What other people think happens after death (as long as it doesn't adversely affect their behavior when they're alive) is of no consequence in my life.
 
NUMBERICA said:
These aren't small mistakes. For whatever reason, I guess God had a real love affair with the worst secretaries imaginable.


God: Tell everyone my love is unending and there is eternal salvation for any that should seek it.

Young: Oh, blacks can't have the priesthood because of a curse, it shall never be lifted, or it shall under ridiculous conditions, blacks are uncouth, uncomely, of sub-human intelligence, and wild, and if you marry interracially god will strike you down? Got it. Crystal.

God: ... (for 130 years) Oh, sorry! I was busy. Brigham, you heard me wrong. Brigham?

Kimball: I'm here, sir.

God: Oh, yes, well, every male is to have the opportunity to earn the priesthood.

OR

God: Remember how the restorer of the one true gospel gave the priesthood to two black guys?

Young: Yeah.

God: Just kidding. They're grand-fathered in, they're cool, but you can't let any other black guys have the priesthood.

Young: Why not?

God: Because Cain slew Abel 6,000 years ago.

Young: Okay, that's cool. But why now suddenly? This was never a specific policy before, and even if it was, did it just slip your mind in those many direct conversations with President Smith?

God: Don't worry about it. That's just how it is, and how it will be forever or somewhere pretty close to it.

Young: Okay.



I'm pretty bummed if these are the best answers the arbiter of creation and his chosen mouth-piece(s) have for us.
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Explained:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5X4N2exOsU
 
GVC said:
and I'm not posting this for any other reason than to correct beantown. As I said before, believe what you like. What other people think happens after death (as long as it doesn't adversely affect their behavior when they're alive) is of no consequence in my life.
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Yea but GVC from what I remember you are Atheist or at least don't believe in the Bible. If you are Christian and believe in all the of Bible then that comes with understanding that God has held certain church ordinances or callings from certain groups of people. How God sets up his church on earth through time is his decision. But I also understand that church leaders over the history of man have had weakness and not been able to carry out what he wanted properly.

Again, If you believe in the God of the Bible then you believe that God has given priesthood to some, and taken it from others....and so on....as well as given Temple blessings to some, and not to others.

So I don't understand why you're trying to understand Africans in the priesthood when you don't even have a fundamental belief in God, Christ or the Bible.


If I was mistaken on your beliefs then I'm sorry but from what I remember you saying in the past I believe Im not far off.
 
Beantown said:
Scriptures are the only place I get church doctrine from.
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So the prophet speaking today does not count as doctrine in your mind? I would think if a letter came down from the First Presidency saying something to the effect of "The policy of the Church is..." that would be considered doctrine.
 
GVC said:
I prefer non-theist, and no, I don't believe the bible to be anything more than tribal bull-****.
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So then don't stress out about this stuff.....If you were a Baptist talking about Africans not getting the priesthood for a period of time then its easy..I could just call you a hypocrite.
 
catratcho said:
So the prophet speaking today does not count as doctrine in your mind? I would think if a letter came down from the First Presidency saying something to the effect of "The policy of the Church is..." that would be considered doctrine.
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I agree, but I am in the view that whatever church leaders or "the church" comes out with as doctrine or policy would be backed up with some substance. Which is where scriptures come into play.

I dont think the church expects us to follow blindly, though a lot of members would have people think that.
 
Beantown said:
So then don't stress out about this stuff.
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? This is a message board: A place to share our opinions/knowledge on a variety of topics (that are generally of interest to us). I'm just here correcting your mistakes. Try not to assume you know my motives in doing so. Try to take what I write at face value, and I'll try to do the same. Cool?
 
Beantown said:
I agree, but I am in the view that whatever church leaders or "the church" comes out with as doctrine or policy would be backed up with some substance. Which is where scriptures come into play.

I dont think the church expects us to follow blindly, though a lot of members would have people think that.
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What mistake did you correct?
 
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