Will Rudy get the D-Will Treatment?

[Handlogten's Heros]

The day we traded D-Will I was sad. Loved watching him... was my favorite player on that team, but I understood. It was universally applauded and "set us up" for the future. There are a few things happening that may end up with Rudy getting the D-Will treatment. I love the guy... I hope he comes back to this tournament thing with a renewed fire and we see the absolute dominant force defensively that we have known...

But here is my concern... Rudy's Defensive RPM the last few years...

2016 - 6.02
2017 - 5.06
2018 - 4.35
2019 - 3.23

There is a lot to this number but I think we have all kind of felt his effect slip a bit... whether it is because he isn't as interested in defense, the fact that the rules and game has shifted towards offense, that there are more shooting bigs, or some other reason … IDK but our defense seems to be toothless this year and seemed to slip a bit over the last couple years. I think we may have seen Rudy's best defensive years.

There is a confluence of events that have me worried:

1- He is up for a new deal and the type of max money we can give him ranges quite a bit. We need to get him for less than megamax and hopefully slightly less than max... but

2- DM is also up for a new deal and will get the 5 year max no questions asked. Which would make him the highest paid player on the team if Rudy gave a discount... Given their recent issues I'm not sure that is gonna happen. I think there is friction there... watched them on court all year and the communication had a lot of bad body language.

3- This year is shortened and depending on if fans are able to attend next year may be shortened too... those are the only two years he is currently under contract... two potentially weird seasons.

4- We are going to have some potential issues financially... Millers are doing just fine I'm sure but I'm guessing the purse may not be as easy to get into as it was last summer.

5- DL learned from KOC... DL was burned by Hayward... somewhere KOC is in the basement of the Vivint dressed as Darth Sidous and DL gonna go visit him... when he does will DL turn and move Rudy.

I'm not saying its the right thing... I would only do it if I got a strong return, which may not be there... I'm just saying I think it is on the table and I will no longer be shocked if it happens.

 

[GVC]

1st in the league in drpm in each of those seasons, and 9th in the league in wins (by total rpm) last year.

Dude's still easily the best player on the team. Jazz are better off moving other players, including Donovan, if money is an issue.

 

[NAOS]

It’ll be interesting to see what their chemistry is like. Maybe Disney world will bring them closer in spirit.

 

[JimLes]

Maybe Disney world will bring them closer in spirit.

Friendship is magic.

 

[kabenac]

It’ll be interesting to see what their chemistry is like. Maybe Disney world will bring them closer in spirit.

I just imagined Rudy walking through the park with Donovan on his shoulders (Mitchell's wearing a Mickey ears hat and is eating a $20 ice cream cone).

When Mitchell says something Rudy doesn't like Rudy walks underneath a low-hanging sign and it smacks Mitchell in the face, to which Rudy responds, "Sorry!"

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

1st in the league in drpm in each of those seasons, and 9th in the league in wins (by total rpm) last year.

Dude's still easily the best player on the team. Jazz are better off moving other players, including Donovan, if money is an issue.

I should have mentioned he was still first. I just think overall he has less impact... still very impactful. Not sure if it is just the overall direction of the league... some Rudy slowing down... or some of everything.

The other point is valid... I think Rudy gets you to 50 wins and is more impactful now... but he presents some matchup issues and maybe some limitations if we want to build a true title contender. Moving him almost certainly makes us worse short term... but part of me wonders if you can mimic his overall impact or get 80% of it with another option. Our defensive funneling tactic works well in many scenarios, but teams that spread us out can really take the edge off and then the perimeter guys seem to struggle even more.

It also isn't about right now... its about the next 5 years. Its also what DM means to the community and just the perception of our team... he's an outspoken charismatic young man. Rudy has his own charm but it is more silent leadership and not sure he has the same attraction DM does.

Not saying we have to choose between the two... I'm saying I see a storm coming where management thinks it could make sense to move on. It really depends on what you can get. We shall see, but I see it brewing and this strange tournament may bring them together or show that the seams are splitting a bit.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No matter what happens I will always love and support the dude... just like I did with D-Will... never understood the hate he got. There was clear frustration and he flew off the handle a bit, but Sloan was very set in his ways too and not the most cuddly dude.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

The Jazz would probably trade Rudy under two scenarios:

1) The parties are at an impasse on his next extension. Rudy wants something close to supermax and the Jazz would move him rather than overpay him from their perspective. This would be comparable to what happened with Kemba Walker and Boogie Cousins.

2) The Jazz think there is a high probability that Gobert leaves in a year to join another team, say Dallas, so he can get set up by Luka Doncic.

When KOC traded DWill to the Nets, he did it because he didn't want to lose his star player for nothing--the way that Toronto had recently lost Chris Bosh and Phoenix had lost Amare Stoudemire. He also did it because he didn't want to give DWill a $100M max extension. The rift with Jerry Sloan gave the team PR cover to make a move they were probably already resigned to making.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Jazz would probably trade Rudy under two scenarios:

1) The parties are at an impasse on his next extension. Rudy wants something close to supermax and the Jazz would move him rather than overpay him from their perspective. This would be comparable to what happened with Kemba Walker and Boogie Cousins.

2) The Jazz think there is a high probability that Gobert leaves in a year to join another team, say Dallas, so he can get set up by Luka Doncic.

When KOC traded DWill to the Nets, he did it because he didn't want to lose his star player for nothing--the way that Toronto had recently lost Chris Bosh and Phoenix had lost Amare Stoudemire. He also did it because he didn't want to give DWill a $100M max extension. The rift with Jerry Sloan gave the team PR cover to make a move they were probably already resigned to making.

Right... and the scenario is brewing imo… Will the Jazz just pay Rudy? He likely won't want to take a cut if DM is getting full max. The purse strings might be getting tight. If they can't agree I think they move him IF they got a decent return. If it was mediocre you just roll the dice and hopefully pivot with the cap room you might clear.

I just think there is some real smoke here.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Not having Bojan will help us answer some questions in a way... He's the weakest defender in the starting lineup, so if our defense looks similar to years past then its probably not a Rudy or some change in the way the game is played issue. The offense needs to hold up though and I think Bojan's absence will be felt there.

If Rudy comes back with the right attitude and DM throws him a pass or two then I could see us righting the ship and figuring things out. I'm just worried they grow further apart and now is a terrible time for that.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I would just like to mention that what the Jazz got in the trade ultimately didn't amount to much. Favors in my mind remains more of a 'what if?' than a great player and he's really the only thing that panned out. At all.

I guess trading Deron gave us all this flexibility to... uhh... be an afterthought for 5-6 years.

If the Jazz don't know how to use assets and can't utilize the flexibility then it is pointless to trade established players for them.

But I also understand the point of this thread. My stance is that if one or both of him and Donovan can't patch their **** up then they are ****ing babies. This year (ha) and next are the Jazz's chance to do something.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I would just like to mention that what the Jazz got in the trade ultimately didn't amount to much. Favors in my mind remains more of a 'what if?' than a great player and he's really the only thing that panned out. At all.

I guess trading Deron gave us all this flexibility to... uhh... be an afterthought for 5-6 years.

If the Jazz don't know how to use assets and can't utilize the flexibility then it is pointless to trade established players for them.

But I also understand the point of this thread. My stance is that if one or both of him and Donovan can't patch their **** up then they are ****ing babies. This year (ha) and next are the Jazz's chance to do something.

Agree... that trade is still ultimately seen as "so smart" even though it became meh... and really because Deron fell off a cliff and got paid.

I will say had we done a full pivot then we probably could have come out much better and we didn't have anyone on the roster as good as DM... so it could come out differently I guess.

We are in a bad spot... not like Sacramento Kings or New York Knicks bad but it will be tough to build given the cap schematics and we may be pushed a different direction soon.

 

[Takenote801]

I’ll cheer for Rudy no matter what happens. Rudy was treated unfairly through the entire thing especially by Donovan. Donovan not saying anything is kind of inexcusable given his status on the franchise. Honestly idk what happens. Do you trade Rudy? Do you trade both? I don’t see where you trade either of them and it’s beneficial to the franchise or either of their careers tbh. You won’t recover from it fast enough. Rudy isn’t taking any discount at this point, not after all the garbage that took place. If we trade Rudy, Donovan will get his max extension, the Jazz won’t be as good and he’ll walk out the door at the end of it probably right as the Jazz get a decent team back together. It’s unfortunate. Jazz did a ton right, and the two petty “leaders” on the team threw it away. We’ll have to see how they come back this summer but if I’m Rudy there’s no way I’m thrilled to play with Donovan. Quin will be the buffer that makes it workable. But man that first time seeing each other is gonna be real awkward lol.

 

[SCS]

I'm not in the mood for another rebuild. I'm just not. I'm so tired of building a team that gets close and then starting over.

That's my only thought.

 

[NAOS]

I would just like to mention that what the Jazz got in the trade ultimately didn't amount to much. Favors in my mind remains more of a 'what if?' than a great player and he's really the only thing that panned out. At all.

I guess trading Deron gave us all this flexibility to... uhh... be an afterthought for 5-6 years.

If the Jazz don't know how to use assets and can't utilize the flexibility then it is pointless to trade established players for them.

But I also understand the point of this thread. My stance is that if one or both of him and Donovan can't patch their **** up then they are ****ing babies. This year (ha) and next are the Jazz's chance to do something.

All dat flexubility and Condley, doe

 

[David Stern]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but revenues for 20/21 are supposed to be significantly lower, and that will dramatically effect the cap for 21/22, when both of these deals would be signed. If that’s the case, Rudy’s Supermax and Donovan’s max could be great values if the cap spikes quickly after that when fans return to arenas

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Right... and the scenario is brewing imo… Will the Jazz just pay Rudy? He likely won't want to take a cut if DM is getting full max. The purse strings might be getting tight. If they can't agree I think they move him IF they got a decent return. If it was mediocre you just roll the dice and hopefully pivot with the cap room you might clear.

I just think there is some real smoke here.

Tony Jones says the Jazz want to pay Rudy. I think they'll offer him full max or something very close. They probably don't want to supermax him, so that's where there is a potential impasse. He's considered a bonafide All Star, DPOY and top-3 center in the league right now, so I think they can justify maxing him out. Even if the Jazz wanted to trade him, giving him an extension would only increase his trade value. If I were Rudy, I'd take a 2+1 or 3+1 max extension.

The question the Jazz need to ask themselves is whether Donovan and Rudy fit well together on the court. The answer may be that they're not perfect together, but they're still the best option that the Jazz have. If the Jazz can add one more high-impact player at the wing, then they're a 60-win team.

One other thing to consider is where the cap lands this year. If the cap drops too much, I could actually see the Jazz agree to give Rudy a deal a bit above the max in anticipation that the cap will then increase over the next couple years and make Rudy's deal fair both ways.

In any case, I think the Jazz want to extend Rudy for at least another 3 years. I don't think anyone can look at what the Jazz are paying Mike Conley and think that Rudy won't get at least the same.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I would just like to mention that what the Jazz got in the trade ultimately didn't amount to much. Favors in my mind remains more of a 'what if?' than a great player and he's really the only thing that panned out. At all.

I guess trading Deron gave us all this flexibility to... uhh... be an afterthought for 5-6 years.

If the Jazz don't know how to use assets and can't utilize the flexibility then it is pointless to trade established players for them.

But I also understand the point of this thread. My stance is that if one or both of him and Donovan can't patch their **** up then they are ****ing babies. This year (ha) and next are the Jazz's chance to do something.

This is what the Jazz got in that DWill trade, as I recall:
** Derrick Favors
** Devin Harris
** Nets' 2011 FRP unprotected, which unfortunately turned into Enes Kanter
** GSW FRP that conveyed in 2014 and turned into Rodney Hood

That's a decent haul with two top-5 picks and another FRP. The picks just didn't pan out. If the Jazz traded down and drafted Klay Thompson or Kawhi Leonard in 2011, the trade would have been a huge success.

 

[oneye]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but revenues for 20/21 are supposed to be significantly lower, and that will dramatically effect the cap for 21/22, when both of these deals would be signed. If that’s the case, Rudy’s Supermax and Donovan’s max could be great values if the cap spikes quickly after that when fans return to arenas

Both contracts % will be based off the 2022 cap even if they're signed this summer, not this upcoming years cap. So long as things are back to normal after this season or next it should impact them much at all. Donovan's salary will be 25% of whatever the cap is that year, and can go up to 30% of the cap if he makes All NBA the year his % is based off of. Rudy's super max would be 35% of the cap. Again, both based off the 2022 cap not this years cap.

The cap aspect will be interesting to see how the players union handles it. They are not going to want it to drop and then spike, they'd much rather have it smoothed out so free agents this season and next don't get screwed, but there will have to be some re-working of the CBA I believe. In Rudy's case it doesn't really matter what the cap is, if they offer the super max he's taking it, 35% of the any cap is a ton of money. As for Donovan, hopefully he just signs his 5 year extension and the cap is in okay enough shape that he doesn't sign a shorter deal and become an UFA sooner than any of us anticipated. It would suck.

 

[NUMBERICA]

This is what the Jazz got in that DWill trade, as I recall:
** Derrick Favors
** Devin Harris
** Nets' 2011 FRP unprotected, which unfortunately turned into Enes Kanter
** GSW FRP that conveyed in 2014 and turned into Rodney Hood

That's a decent haul with two top-5 picks and another FRP. The picks just didn't pan out. If the Jazz traded down and drafted Klay Thompson or Kawhi Leonard in 2011, the trade would have been a huge success.

Nothing you said contradicted my post, which stated that that trade ended up being a nothing-burger; none of those assets ended up amounting to much in the end.