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Cougars 2011-12 Football Discussion

jazzman12 said:
My guess is Riley finishes the season strong against weak competition and Heaps transfers. I understand the move to Nelson, but I think it was TERRIBLE timing by BYU coaches. Right now is the exact time Heaps should be playing. He could actually get some confidence against the likes of San Jose St, Idaho St, etc. Instead, coaches had Heaps in there during the toughest part of BYU's schedule and then benched him for the games they were bound to win regardless of who was playing QB.

I think the only way Heaps' career at BYU is salvaged is if Nelson get's injured during the next few games and it is Heaps who leads them to the strong finish. Otherwise, I think the kid bolts.
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Finally, something other than morbid stupidity coming out of your filthy sewer.

Anyone who thinks Nelson should be starting is a bonafide retard. *looks at Ogatool* I love Bronco to death and I have a hard time questioning his coaching decisions, but after last years QB debacle and this sideshow B.S., it's getting harder and harder to reign in my loyalty. Starting Nelson is just plain stupid.
 
TroutBum said:
Finally, something other than morbid stupidity coming out of your filthy sewer.

Anyone who thinks Nelson should be starting is a bonafide retard. *looks at Ogatool* I love Bronco to death and I have a hard time questioning his coaching decisions, but after last years QB debacle and this sideshow B.S., it's getting harder and harder to reign in my loyalty. Starting Nelson is just plain stupid.
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So benching players who don't produce while playing the guy who replaces him and produces wins is stupidity? Gotcha.




For the record...I'm not a big Nelson fan. But I'm not convinced Heaps is the Golden Child either.
 
catratcho said:
So benching players who don't produce while playing the guy who replaces him and produces wins is stupidity? Gotcha.




For the record...I'm not a big Nelson fan. But I'm not convinced Heaps is the Golden Child either.
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Think about starting Raja Bell and C.J. Miles over the rookies as an idea. See where I'm going with this? Heaps is the future, not Nelson. Heaps needs to be in there getting minutes/experience, not Nelson. Heaps needs to learn, and he can't do that from the bench.

There. See? I'm never wrong.
 
TroutBum said:
Think about starting Raja Bell and C.J. Miles over the rookies as an idea. See where I'm going with this? Heaps is the future, not Nelson. Heaps needs to be in there getting minutes/experience, not Nelson. Heaps needs to learn, and he can't do that from the bench.

There. See? I'm never wrong.
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I'm not convinced Heaps is the future. I've never seen the reason for all the hype behind him.
 
catratcho said:
I'm not convinced Heaps is the future. I've never seen the reason for all the hype behind him.
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He's got a strong arm and was highly touted by scouts.

And we all know that every QB with a strong arm is good. And that scouts never overrate any player... Ever.
 
jazzman12 said:
My guess is Riley finishes the season strong against weak competition and Heaps transfers. I understand the move to Nelson, but I think it was TERRIBLE timing by BYU coaches. Right now is the exact time Heaps should be playing. He could actually get some confidence against the likes of San Jose St, Idaho St, etc. Instead, coaches had Heaps in there during the toughest part of BYU's schedule and then benched him for the games they were bound to win regardless of who was playing QB.

I think the only way Heaps' career at BYU is salvaged is if Nelson get's injured during the next few games and it is Heaps who leads them to the strong finish. Otherwise, I think the kid bolts.
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Bad timing? Heaps did nothing against Utah St. and they lose that game if he finishes it. Nelson lead them back and got them a win they would not have gotten. By doing so he showed he deserves the start. Frankly Heaps is the most overrated player in Utah sports for as long as I can remember. He was terrible in every game I saw this year.

Big arm, with No Brain and No heart.
 
gregbroncs said:
Bad timing? Heaps did nothing against Utah St. and they lose that game if he finishes it. Nelson lead them back and got them a win they would not have gotten. By doing so he showed he deserves the start. Frankly Heaps is the most overrated player in Utah sports for as long as I can remember. He was terrible in every game I saw this year.

Big arm, with No Brain and No heart.
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IAWTP. Riley nelson did exactly what jake heaps could not do against the same team. If hes worth anything he'll work hard to get better and win the spot back... He could also redshirt next season or he could transfer.
 
gregbroncs said:
Bad timing? Heaps did nothing against Utah St. and they lose that game if he finishes it. Nelson lead them back and got them a win they would not have gotten. By doing so he showed he deserves the start. Frankly Heaps is the most overrated player in Utah sports for as long as I can remember. He was terrible in every game I saw this year.

Big arm, with No Brain and No heart.
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To be fair, Utah State has mastered the art of blowing games late that appeared to be certain victories. Riley Nelson's game winning TD pass was actually a very poor pass that was deflected into another BYU players hands. He also had a hail mary to keep that drive alive that hung up in the air forever and was only caught due to HORRIBLE defense by Utah State. Let's not pretend like Riley came out and was throwing darts all over the place because that's certainly not the case.

With that being said, I probably would have put Riley in that game as well to see if he could provide a spark. However, I still would have given Heaps the chance to start the following game. What I mean by bad timing is, what sense does it make to let Heaps play the hardest part of your schedule only to bench him as soon as the schedule softens up drastically? He can have the right attitude and work his butt off in the offseason, he's still not going to get any better until he's getting game reps. Why not give him those reps against a slew of teams that you're going to beat regardless of who's playing QB?

Also, how can anybody accurately guage how much better than Heaps Riley Nelson is when he gets to start games against San Jose State and Idaho State and Heaps was starting against an SEC team on the road, Texas on the road, and a Utah defense that seems to be very good?

I get why BYU fan would rather have Riley Nelson at QB right now but if you think this is doing anything to help BYU in the long run, I think you're kidding yourself. Like Trout, I am totally amazed at how Bronco has mishandled his QB situations for the last 2 seasons.
 
jazzman12 said:
To be fair, Utah State has mastered the art of blowing games late that appeared to be certain victories. Riley Nelson's game winning TD pass was actually a very poor pass that was deflected into another BYU players hands. He also had a hail mary to keep that drive alive that hung up in the air forever and was only caught due to HORRIBLE defense by Utah State. Let's not pretend like Riley came out and was throwing darts all over the place because that's certainly not the case.

With that being said, I probably would have put Riley in that game as well to see if he could provide a spark. However, I still would have given Heaps the chance to start the following game. What I mean by bad timing is, what sense does it make to let Heaps play the hardest part of your schedule only to bench him as soon as the schedule softens up drastically? He can have the right attitude and work his butt off in the offseason, he's still not going to get any better until he's getting game reps. Why not give him those reps against a slew of teams that you're going to beat regardless of who's playing QB?

Also, how can anybody accurately guage how much better than Heaps Riley Nelson is when he gets to start games against San Jose State and Idaho State and Heaps was starting against an SEC team on the road, Texas on the road, and a Utah defense that seems to be very good?

I get why BYU fan would rather have Riley Nelson at QB right now but if you think this is doing anything to help BYU in the long run, I think you're kidding yourself. Like Trout, I am totally amazed at how Bronco has mishandled his QB situations for the last 2 seasons.
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I think these points are hard to argue.

But I think one thing that you fail to take into consideration is:

Leadership, chemistry, work habits, confidence, and trust.

These things don't necessarily show up in the box score. But I think players and coaches recognize that Nelson has these qualities... Whereas Heaps doesn't.

Whether he develops leadership, confidence, trust, etc is beyond me. But all indications that I've seen/heard, are that Heaps think he's god's gift to football and doesn't mesh well with that football team.

Only time will tell....

Personally, losing Heaps isn't as big of a loss as so many on this board want it to be. BYU doesn't need Andrew Luck (although it sure would be nice). They just need Joe Beck or Max Hall to be competitive.
 
The Thriller said:
But I think one thing that you fail to take into consideration is:

Leadership, chemistry, work habits, confidence, and trust.

These things don't necessarily show up in the box score. But I think players and coaches recognize that Nelson has these qualities... Whereas Heaps doesn't.

Whether he develops leadership, confidence, trust, etc is beyond me. But all indications that I've seen/heard, are that Heaps think he's god's gift to football and doesn't mesh well with that football team.
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And what exactly have you seen/heard? Serious question. I've read several posts on several online forums from people "Who Know", but that's about as reliable as Archie at a spermbank. I'm fairly certain, given your past history of falling HARD for whatever propaganda is set in front of you, that you really don't have any idea about Heaps' character, his on/off the field attitude, or how other players/coaches feel about him.
 
The Thriller said:
I think these points are hard to argue.

But I think one thing that you fail to take into consideration is:

Leadership, chemistry, work habits, confidence, and trust.

These things don't necessarily show up in the box score. But I think players and coaches recognize that Nelson has these qualities... Whereas Heaps doesn't.

Whether he develops leadership, confidence, trust, etc is beyond me. But all indications that I've seen/heard, are that Heaps think he's god's gift to football and doesn't mesh well with that football team.

Only time will tell....

Personally, losing Heaps isn't as big of a loss as so many on this board want it to be. BYU doesn't need Andrew Luck (although it sure would be nice). They just need Joe Beck or Max Hall to be competitive.
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I see what you're saying, but I'm curious about all of these poor work habit and entitlement rumors in regards to Heaps. If those indeed were problems, why was Bronco letting it go on? All offseason long into fall camp we saw nothing but reports of Heaps' emerging greatness and how he had really taken control of this team. Bronco was singing his praises first hand. It seems like BYU coaches and players love Nelson because he is "gritty". Grit is all well and good but I don't know if you give up on the more talented sophmore because he doesn't have enough of it.
 
jazzman12 said:
I see what you're saying, but I'm curious about all of these poor work habit and entitlement rumors in regards to Heaps. If those indeed were problems, why was Bronco letting it go on? All offseason long into fall camp we saw nothing but reports of Heaps' emerging greatness and how he had really taken control of this team. Bronco was singing his praises first hand. It seems like BYU coaches and players love Nelson because he is "gritty". Grit is all well and good but I don't know if you give up on the more talented sophmore because he doesn't have enough of it.
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It's very easy to be "great" in practice. Translating that into games is something else.
 
catratcho said:
It's very easy to be "great" in practice. Translating that into games is something else.
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I find it fishy that the kid is amazing in practice and awful in games. Especially considering the way he finished last season. He certainly did not look like a kid who couldn't play. So what has changed since Heaps finished 2010 strong and was the MVP in BYU's bowl win? The obvious answer that I think is starting to be forgotten is Brandon Doman. Who knows if he will grow into his role as OC but he's looked pretty awful so far IMO. I also think Riley Nelson masks alot of Doman's shortcomings with his ability to ad-lib and extend plays with his legs.

IMO this falls more on Doman's shoulders and for some reason he seems to be getting a pass. As an OC, it's probably very easy for his to offense look amazing in practice against a defense that he knows inside and out. I think he's getting out-schemed and out-coached by opposing defensive coordinators. Problem is, it's not going to show up against the Idaho States of the world.
 
It's not just Doman. Even when Heaps was the starter, he was often missing open receivers. Throwing bullets over their heads, and things like that, even when the receivers were quite close to him. That was what I personally was most frustrated about.

edit: not to give Doman a complete pass; his play calling at the start of the season was pretty horrific. I think it's gotten lots better. Or perhaps like you said, Nelson is masking some of it.
 
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