Devin Harris on Al Jefferson: Jazz fans will be surprised if they see him

[sepanol]

So you never told me Sepanol;

How many centers are more offensively skilled as of right now (Duncan is definitely on the decline) than Al Jefferson? I really dont care what you think his "Natural" position is, fact of the matter is that he played 82 games as a center last season, has predominately played center for most of his career, and should therefore have his offensive repetoire compared against people of that position.

You just swapped the question and started talking about his defense......typical. You said that Kanter would become at LEAST better than him, and now youre not addressing my question.

I dont deny Big Al is a good offensive player, maybe he is one of the best in post savy moves under the rim, but i am trying to point out, defense is an important part of game.

Offensively skilled Center are you looking for? In general Centers aren't offensively skilled at all, for example Howard isnt as offensively skilled as Big Al but he scores more.
Brook Lopez , he may be not more offensively skilled, but he scores as much. Marc Gasol i think better Center overall, even though offensively i cant say exactly as good as him. Okafor is as good as him, but not as offensively skilled. Bynum as well.

So i dont see many Centers in nba offensively more skilled than Big Al but i can see many offensively more skilled PFs (which is his natural postion) and many better centers overall . So basically that doesnt put him on the elite level of players as you think he is.

So basically, offensively skilled doesnt exactly adress the essential ability Centers should have. And it doesnt mean anything if you dont use your offensive skills efficently. Yes Big Al is very skilled but he never used his skills as good as he is supposed to use. We can include decision making, court vision to the reasons of this.
He was never a good passer in double team or in general, he was never a good mid range jump shooter, he was always a good finisher close to the rim but not an effective scorer.
He can score 25 ppg if he makes more attempts, but that wont make him the best offensive player in the game. And in the defensive end, you cant even count me 5 centers who are worse than him so thats bad. Thats not the type of Center i would like to see in Utah. Plus you miss the details that as much as he scores 20+ ppg, we are not sure how he will be in playoffs? In playoffs teams will close under the rim more, they will make tougher defense, and then you should have many threats to score. Jefferson doesnt have that, he just do best the only thing he does, post up game. But he wont score in many different ways. So i am not sure, if he will score 20+ in playoffs as well or not.

And you are always missing the point, you always argue, if he is good or not, i dont say he is bad, i just say, he isnt as good as a 14 million per year player should be.

 

[sepanol]

Out of this group, not even caring that most of the players you named are not centers, i would take al's offense over everyone but dirk, amare and gasol.

bynum's game is still developing (he can barely stay on the court),
jamison is old and awkward
bosh is softer than my **** after raisin bran
howard is a brute, and has the ability to dominate, but doesnt have the offensive consistency yet,(if he ever develops a midrange shot, lookout)
brand has been a let down for some time,
amare is a good offensive player, but you tout him as more deserving of the money he gets.... he plays NO defense and has a 100 mil contract. funny how that works.
gasol is very talented. soft, euro, but competitive, and a winner. cant argue it.
nowitski. plays no defense. elite beyond elite offensively. is he worth the money?
garnett is getting so old he isnt even a second option scorer on his team.
duncan, again, was once amazing, now aging and a solid role player.
lewis... really?

big al is definitely top 5 offensively in my book.

Man if you are looking overall, i can discuss if its right or no about Amare for example, but if you are looking offensively, come on Amare is better. Bosh is a better scorer and not worse defender for sure. Jamison is yes as you say. Bynum is a better player overall even right now in my opinion. Brand would be certainly better if he didnt have up and downs but right now i cant say. Gasol, i wont even argue who is better even though he is also a soft guy.

Nowitzki made the freaking Dallas team champion. Garnett has changed the air of whole Boston team in the recent 3 4 years. Duncan set a dynasty with spurs. Lewis played many critical games with clutch shots when orlando went to finals two years ago but hell no he doesntt deserve that crazy money. Howard is totally raw on offense but somehow he scores a lot and all his opponents has to foul out at times because physically he is unstoppable.

But if you say Big Al is top 5 in the offensive book, i would say, first he should score 20 points in a single playoff game, and lets discuss if he is better offensively than half of these guys above

 

[sepanol]

Sepanol: Just admit you don't have any idea how good Al is, or Sap, or Favors. You've never really seen them. Everyone gets the agenda. You love Kanter. You want him playing as many minutes next year as possible. You don't care if it makes the team worse. Kanter is the future. A superstar that will obviously be better than Al is now, or Milsap, or Favors.

Just admit this. Then you won't have to write a lot of posts that pretend at objectivity. And we won't have to read them.

Your comments seem like a joke but just in case if its serious i should answer,
i have seen only Big Al playing more mins than the number of your posts in these site. So i have my own ideas about each of these players and i dont need your precious ideas about how good they are. And it is pretty obvious you dont read my posts at all because you add Favors and Millsap on that line without knowing how high im on these players, and probably you didnt add Memo because he is turkish, so i would never criticize him right?

You cant prove how shallow your ideas are better than this, thats why better lets not discuss basketball with you. At least those other guys im arguing with , are providing some back up for their opinions, it would be nice if you bother yourself to give me contra ideas instead of hallucinatory ideas.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I dont deny Big Al is a good offensive player, maybe he is one of the best in post savy moves under the rim, but i am trying to point out, defense is an important part of game.

Offensively skilled Center are you looking for? In general Centers aren't offensively skilled at all, for example Howard isnt as offensively skilled as Big Al but he scores more.
Brook Lopez , he may be not more offensively skilled, but he scores as much. Marc Gasol i think better Center overall, even though offensively i cant say exactly as good as him. Okafor is as good as him, but not as offensively skilled. Bynum as well.

So i dont see many Centers in nba offensively more skilled than Big Al but i can see many offensively more skilled PFs (which is his natural postion) and many better centers overall . So basically that doesnt put him on the elite level of players as you think he is.

So basically, offensively skilled doesnt exactly adress the essential ability Centers should have. And it doesnt mean anything if you dont use your offensive skills efficently. Yes Big Al is very skilled but he never used his skills as good as he is supposed to use. We can include decision making, court vision to the reasons of this.
He was never a good passer in double team or in general, he was never a good mid range jump shooter, he was always a good finisher close to the rim but not an effective scorer.
He can score 25 ppg if he makes more attempts, but that wont make him the best offensive player in the game. And in the defensive end, you cant even count me 5 centers who are worse than him so thats bad. Thats not the type of Center i would like to see in Utah. Plus you miss the details that as much as he scores 20+ ppg, we are not sure how he will be in playoffs? In playoffs teams will close under the rim more, they will make tougher defense, and then you should have many threats to score. Jefferson doesnt have that, he just do best the only thing he does, post up game. But he wont score in many different ways. So i am not sure, if he will score 20+ in playoffs as well or not.

And you are always missing the point, you always argue, if he is good or not, i dont say he is bad, i just say, he isnt as good as a 14 million per year player should be.

Man, we aren't talking about who is the best overall centre. The argument started with you claiming Kanter would be at LEAST as good offensively as Big Al, and I along with other posters are simply asking "kay, so who in the NBA is better offensively than Al Jefferson?" As you're probably realizing, there is really not that many; in fact I'd maybe slot only 3 ahead of him for PF/Cs in general. Were not talking the overall package, were talking strictly offense.

But if you say Big Al is top 5 in the offensive book, i would say, first he should score 20 points in a single playoff game, and lets discuss if he is better offensively than half of these guys above

So since Scola, Love, Griffin, Jordan, Kaman, Lopez, Bogut all didn't make the playoffs last season clearly they must all be garbage on both sides of the floor, right? A teams success should always be measured by a single player? Seriously disagree.

 

[Brown Notes]

The thing is, if Jefferson was 30+ I would be on board with Sep's idea of getting rid of him in favor of developing players (i.e., playing Kanter full time.)

But he's 26. Jefferson is at least as likely to be considered a core player moving forward after another 82 games as any player on the roster. We all would like to believe that Favors and Kanter will be great players but the likelihood for both achieving that is not a sure thing. Jefferson's ability to produce in the NBA is not questioned and he has not reached his ceiling either. People around here seem to dismiss reports of him working hard on his body and game in the offseason but I don't know what he could do that would generate more positive news.

Al has never been a distraction, a bad locker room guy or a risk off court. He's never given any indication of not wanting to be in Utah or being grumpy with teammates or coaches. He was Kevin McHale's personal understudy for several years and is a perfect vet for the young talented bigs to play behind. In addition those guys being there push Al to work even harder to keep beating them out.

Even if Al is not a future core player, it is dumb to believe that he would be worth less somehow next season in a contract year. It is not possible in the NBA to simply trade away somebody's contract, moving Al would mean bringing in somebody that is just as expensive and maybe locked in for a longer period. If that player is a wing then we will be having the same conversation about limiting the minutes of Hayward or Burks, and in any case if Utah wants another vet wing they just sign AK.

It just doesn't make any sense to move Al Jefferson before the end of 2011.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The thing is, if Jefferson was 30+ I would be on board with Sep's idea of getting rid of him in favor of developing players (i.e., playing Kanter full time.)

But he's 26. Jefferson is at least as likely to be considered a core player moving forward after another 82 games as any player on the roster. We all would like to believe that Favors and Kanter will be great players but the likelihood for both achieving that is not a sure thing. Jefferson's ability to produce in the NBA is not questioned and he has not reached his ceiling either. People around here seem to dismiss reports of him working hard on his body and game in the offseason but I don't know what he could do that would generate more positive news.

Al has never been a distraction, a bad locker room guy or a risk off court. He's never given any indication of not wanting to be in Utah or being grumpy with teammates or coaches. He was Kevin McHale's personal understudy for several years and is a perfect vet for the young talented bigs to play behind. In addition those guys being there push Al to work even harder to keep beating them out.

Even if Al is not a future core player, it is dumb to believe that he would be worth less somehow next season in a contract year. It is not possible in the NBA to simply trade away somebody's contract, moving Al would mean bringing in somebody that is just as expensive and maybe locked in for a longer period. If that player is a wing then we will be having the same conversation about limiting the minutes of Hayward or Burks, and in any case if Utah wants another vet wing they just sign AK.

It just doesn't make any sense to move Al Jefferson before the end of 2011.

I just don't see any point in trading him. We already have tons of young pieces, and two more coming in next draft potentially. Can we really get equal value if we trade him? Do we really need more young players? The only point I see in trading him is if Favors or Kanter are just ridiculous next year (think Griffin/Duncan rookie/sophomore type production) that renders Jefferson basically useless. I doubt that happens.

 

[Brown Notes]

Yea. Everybody loves to talk about developing players but the AJ acquisition was beautiful because somebody else already did that for us and we got him pretty much for free.

Why we want to jettison him with the idea of living through the lumps of riding two guys while they learn the game is beyond my simple comprehension.

It gets even more difficult to understand when I start thinking about it from the perspective of a new head coach in a truncated season. You want to have players you can depend on to know what they are doing. Harris and AJ will be heavily relied upon in this regard.

 

[sepanol]

Man, we aren't talking about who is the best overall centre. The argument started with you claiming Kanter would be at LEAST as good offensively as Big Al, and I along with other posters are simply asking "kay, so who in the NBA is better offensively than Al Jefferson?" As you're probably realizing, there is really not that many; in fact I'd maybe slot only 3 ahead of him for PF/Cs in general. Were not talking the overall package, were talking strictly offense.



So since Scola, Love, Griffin, Jordan, Kaman, Lopez, Bogut all didn't make the playoffs last season clearly they must all be garbage on both sides of the floor, right? A teams success should always be measured by a single player? Seriously disagree.

All these players you counted above except Jordan, they are at least as good as or better than Big Al. Especially if we look at the salary/performance ratio.
So i told you, Big Al is one of the best offensive center doesnt mean he is also one of the best center overall.
And you again dont get the point, i didnt measure the team success with single player, im just telling, we should first see Big Al in a single playoff game,and then we will discuss his offensive efficency better. Because playoffs is the real deal

 

[sepanol]

The thing is, if Jefferson was 30+ I would be on board with Sep's idea of getting rid of him in favor of developing players (i.e., playing Kanter full time.)

But he's 26. Jefferson is at least as likely to be considered a core player moving forward after another 82 games as any player on the roster. We all would like to believe that Favors and Kanter will be great players but the likelihood for both achieving that is not a sure thing. Jefferson's ability to produce in the NBA is not questioned and he has not reached his ceiling either. People around here seem to dismiss reports of him working hard on his body and game in the offseason but I don't know what he could do that would generate more positive news.

Al has never been a distraction, a bad locker room guy or a risk off court. He's never given any indication of not wanting to be in Utah or being grumpy with teammates or coaches. He was Kevin McHale's personal understudy for several years and is a perfect vet for the young talented bigs to play behind. In addition those guys being there push Al to work even harder to keep beating them out.

Even if Al is not a future core player, it is dumb to believe that he would be worth less somehow next season in a contract year. It is not possible in the NBA to simply trade away somebody's contract, moving Al would mean bringing in somebody that is just as expensive and maybe locked in for a longer period. If that player is a wing then we will be having the same conversation about limiting the minutes of Hayward or Burks, and in any case if Utah wants another vet wing they just sign AK.

It just doesn't make any sense to move Al Jefferson before the end of 2011.

I said, if we find something good in return, i dont say lets just rush to give him away, also his personality is good, at least better than Boozer, but i didnt like his body language last year especially after Deron is gone, and he was benched behind Favors in couple of games 4th quarters. There will be games he will be benched with such a large big man rotation, so we arent sure how he will respond to those moments.

Anyway we will see, im not very high on Big Al as you guys, but i dont say he is totally a bad player. Just we should use every opportunity to make this team contender, because we dont have the flexibility to sign big names in free agencies like knicks or lakers. So trades and drafts are our only chance. And so far we are doing good in the last 2 years in these cases, i hope it will continue

 

[Deleted member 848]

All these players you counted above except Jordan, they are at least as good as or better than Big Al. Especially if we look at the salary/performance ratio.
So i told you, Big Al is one of the best offensive center doesnt mean he is also one of the best center overall.
And you again dont get the point, i didnt measure the team success with single player, im just telling, we should first see Big Al in a single playoff game,and then we will discuss his offensive efficency better. Because playoffs is the real deal

lol.

 

[billyshelby]

Your comments seem like a joke but just in case if its serious i should answer,
i have seen only Big Al playing more mins than the number of your posts in these site. So i have my own ideas about each of these players and i dont need your precious ideas about how good they are. And it is pretty obvious you dont read my posts at all because you add Favors and Millsap on that line without knowing how high im on these players, and probably you didnt add Memo because he is turkish, so i would never criticize him right?

You cant prove how shallow your ideas are better than this, thats why better lets not discuss basketball with you. At least those other guys im arguing with , are providing some back up for their opinions, it would be nice if you bother yourself to give me contra ideas instead of hallucinatory ideas.

Dude, your hero got drafted on the Jazz. I got no problem with fanboy posts. Cheer your guy on, I'm down with that. But don't pretend you've ever seen Al, Sap, or Favors play more than 10 times collectively. And for the love of god, stop posting about how proven NBA players are expendable so your hero can get more minutes. Hard as this is for you to believe, I'm as excited about Kanter as you. But he has to earn his minutes like every other guy.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I wish I was naive enough to believe this. Every off-season, you read stories about players working harder than ever, putting on weight they need, losing weight they don't, improving holes in their game, etc, etc. Vast majority of them show absolutely no effect of any of that once the season start.

Come to think of it, I've never heard anyone say "Oh, this off-season, I've been eating Krispy Kream donuts, hanging out at the local pub. I've managed to get fat, lazy, and out of shape. Oh, and my jumper still makes everyone cringe because I've done jack-all to improve it." And yet it happens all the time.

Years of hearing about how hard AK was working, how much he improved his shooting and how much muscle he had added left us all skeptical. As they say...pictures or it didn't happen!

 

[sepanol]

Dude, your hero got drafted on the Jazz. I got no problem with fanboy posts. Cheer your guy on, I'm down with that. But don't pretend you've ever seen Al, Sap, or Favors play more than 10 times collectively. And for the love of god, stop posting about how proven NBA players are expendable so your hero can get more minutes. Hard as this is for you to believe, I'm as excited about Kanter as you. But he has to earn his minutes like every other guy.

I watch the whole ****ing season, i have probably seen more games in the last few years than you ever did, so dont come to funny conclusions like just because he is my countryman, i dont know any other players except him. I have seen Kanter as much as everybody else here, but i have much probably seen Big Al more than you.
It is really stupid that you think just because i am not american i can not watch nba games, or are you just trying to justify yourself with that because you dont have anything else to blame on me except than being a Kanter homer?

 

[sepanol]

lol.

So i take it as you agree with me at last. Thanks

 

[sepanol]

By the way, in the euro cup, many turkish guys were posting in this site, but right now it seems like i am the only one. So it seems very superficial to me, all these homer talks and such kinda stuff about me. If i was a homer, i wouldn't bother myself to write right now at all.

 

[cowhide]

I wish I was naive enough to believe this. Every off-season, you read stories about players working harder than ever, putting on weight they need, losing weight they don't, improving holes in their game, etc, etc. Vast majority of them show absolutely no effect of any of that once the season start.

Come to think of it, I've never heard anyone say "Oh, this off-season, I've been eating Krispy Kream donuts, hanging out at the local pub. I've managed to get fat, lazy, and out of shape. Oh, and my jumper still makes everyone cringe because I've done jack-all to improve it." And yet it happens all the time.

I agree with your point but Ostertag may not have said these things but he certainly did them. I wish there was basketball so we could see all the Jazz players and see if they have truly improved.

 

[Deleted member 848]

So i take it as you agree with me at last. Thanks

Unfortunately, no. I didn't know how else to respond to the post, so I just figured Id give up altogether, seeing as you're not getting my point, and for the time being you don't seem to understand our front court very well at all, nor do you note how much Al improved towards the end of the year; I'm sure you'll point out "haha well how many times did we WIN after the all-star break" even though it is painfully obvious that any centre that rebounds in double digits, scores more than 20 points AS WELL as increases both assist totals and block totals, while playing a bit better of of rotations and pick and rolls is a player that is that could be used on any winning team. Not to mention the fact that he seems to be dedicated to this city, dedicated to improving and dedicated to making it to the playoffs next season. The only way I can see us shipping Al off is if Kanter becomes a runaway success, averaging at the very least 17/9 in his sophomore season while playing stellar defense. Quite frankly, thats unrealistic given how stacked our frontcourt is, so I think you're gonna have to accept the fact that a) Big Al is here to stay and b) Kanter will most likely have a slow start into the league. And if its shown that his ceiling is low, it'll be Kanter who's traded, and Al will remain. Which isn't half bad, seeing as he's only 26, making us still a very young team.

 

[jope]

Unfortunately, no. I didn't know how else to respond to the post, so I just figured Id give up altogether, seeing as you're not getting my point, and for the time being you don't seem to understand our front court very well at all, nor do you note how much Al improved towards the end of the year; I'm sure you'll point out "haha well how many times did we WIN after the all-star break" even though it is painfully obvious that any centre that rebounds in double digits, scores more than 20 points AS WELL as increases both assist totals and block totals, while playing a bit better of of rotations and pick and rolls is a player that is that could be used on any winning team. Not to mention the fact that he seems to be dedicated to this city, dedicated to improving and dedicated to making it to the playoffs next season. The only way I can see us shipping Al off is if Kanter becomes a runaway success, averaging at the very least 17/9 in his sophomore season while playing stellar defense. Quite frankly, thats unrealistic given how stacked our frontcourt is, so I think you're gonna have to accept the fact that a) Big Al is here to stay and b) Kanter will most likely have a slow start into the league. And if its shown that his ceiling is low, it'll be Kanter who's traded, and Al will remain. Which isn't half bad, seeing as he's only 26, making us still a very young team.

definitely this.

 

[sepanol]

Unfortunately, no. I didn't know how else to respond to the post, so I just figured Id give up altogether, seeing as you're not getting my point, and for the time being you don't seem to understand our front court very well at all, nor do you note how much Al improved towards the end of the year; I'm sure you'll point out "haha well how many times did we WIN after the all-star break" even though it is painfully obvious that any centre that rebounds in double digits, scores more than 20 points AS WELL as increases both assist totals and block totals, while playing a bit better of of rotations and pick and rolls is a player that is that could be used on any winning team. Not to mention the fact that he seems to be dedicated to this city, dedicated to improving and dedicated to making it to the playoffs next season. The only way I can see us shipping Al off is if Kanter becomes a runaway success, averaging at the very least 17/9 in his sophomore season while playing stellar defense. Quite frankly, thats unrealistic given how stacked our frontcourt is, so I think you're gonna have to accept the fact that a) Big Al is here to stay and b) Kanter will most likely have a slow start into the league. And if its shown that his ceiling is low, it'll be Kanter who's traded, and Al will remain. Which isn't half bad, seeing as he's only 26, making us still a very young team.

The stats doesnt mean anything, when Boozer played together with Millsap, he played the center position and he avg 20 10 too. So does it make him so good or what?
After the all star we lost many games mainly because we didnt have a team chemistry and then our best player left, and thats the main reason why Jefferson seemed like he improved because he was the first option on offense. For me it doesnt mean he marginally improved just because he made more attempts and more points, maybe we can say he took more responsiblities and he wasnt bad in it. But he never proved to be the guy who deserves 14 million on this team. He couldnt even become a franchise guy in Minny so they gave him away easily when they got Love and they saw his improvement. It will be basically the same thing, Kanter will improve like Love did (it is my opinion of course) and Jefferson will be easily expandable.
It is not something about being a homer or something (i think Memo doesnt deserve more than 6-7 per year for example), but i dont think Big Al is THAT good, he is just a good player who deserves 8-9 million per year as a second option in a decent team. Thats it. No point to discuss more about him i think since we are on opposite lines, but at least it was a good topic to pass time while there is lockout, it is a pity we dont hear a lot of news of the team these days to discuss about.

 

[Deleted member 848]

The stats doesnt mean anything, when Boozer played together with Millsap, he played the center position and he avg 20 10 too. So does it make him so good or what?
After the all star we lost many games mainly because we didnt have a team chemistry and then our best player left, and thats the main reason why Jefferson seemed like he improved because he was the first option on offense. For me it doesnt mean he marginally improved just because he made more attempts and more points, maybe we can say he took more responsiblities and he wasnt bad in it. But he never proved to be the guy who deserves 14 million on this team. He couldnt even become a franchise guy in Minny so they gave him away easily when they got Love and they saw his improvement. It will be basically the same thing, Kanter will improve like Love did (it is my opinion of course) and Jefferson will be easily expandable.
It is not something about being a homer or something (i think Memo doesnt deserve more than 6-7 per year for example), but i dont think Big Al is THAT good, he is just a good player who deserves 8-9 million per year as a second option in a decent team. Thats it. No point to discuss more about him i think since we are on opposite lines, but at least it was a good topic to pass time while there is lockout, it is a pity we dont hear a lot of news of the team these days to discuss about.

a) Boozer averages 20ppg and 10rpg for every minute he plays as a 5 in the NBA?? Lets see some proof here, because i sincerely doubt that
b) He made more points off of more attempts? Wrong again. Al Jefferson's FG% actually increased after the All-Star break. 0/2 Sepanol.
c) I can agree that if the 2010-2011 season was Al Jefferson's ceiling as a player for the rest of his career, his salary would be ****ing awful. However, what I think, and what many others also think, is that Al Jefferson has quite the high ceiling, and has yet to acclaim it. After seeing his improvement over the last half of the season, and stories of commitment to develop better as a player, coupled with his apparent loyalty to this city, people think that hes gonna get better. And quite frankly speanol it would be stupid of everyone to say that he DOESNT have the tools to be a 24/11 player, because he totally does. If he simply draws a couple more fouls, and adds strength to box out more effectively, we could have one of the top PF/Cs in the NBA on our team. So though you seem to be quick to dismiss him, let us wait to see how good he becomes. Quite frankly, this two year wait of Al Jeffersons skill-development coincides very nicely with Kanter becoming accustomed to the NBA, and it puts us ina great situation 2-3 years down the road when we need to chose between the two. We must all be patient with the development of our players before we automatically deduce what should be done with the roster of this team. Lets keep our core intact for a bit; we can become scary good in 5 years.