Where is that pit bull thread when I need it?

[TheDude]

And here is stubby today: https://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID=15

 

[SaltyDawg]

I am impressed. Salty actually posted a link that attempted to prove something not just make a claim. Good thing they don't dock pitbulls tails huh? Since it proved that docking tails could lead to increased aggression.

Unfortunately, the same article tried to loop in ear cropping without any evidence for it. Just a "well if tails do that, so will ears" with nothing to support it. Go read the study they link to, it says nothing about ears, just tails. Here is another look at that study:

https://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=64bb6ba6-3b23-4da9-9466-abd1a6f2587c



Ok so now we all know, docking tails = possibly a more aggressive dog. Oh and we have a claim that cropping the ears might be similar to docking tails, although again nothing beyond a claim. We still have no proof that ear cropping makes the dog a BETTER fighter or more FEROCIOUS, not to mention any proof at all that the INTENT of an owner to do this is to make his dog a better fighter or more ferocious. You could, I suppose, argue that aggression = ferocity, but in the case of my pomeranian, he is very aggressive, but I would by no stretch call him ferocious. As soon as the fight is on, he turns tail and runs.

So where is the proof that cropping ears makes a dog more FEROCIOUS and a BETTER FIGHTER.

I highlighted those last 2 because all you have proven so far is that docking tails is bad (agreed), which they do NOT do to pitbulls, and that in the PAST bulls had cropped ears to protect them in a fight. Nothing to prove that intent in modern times, nor to prove your claims that I highlighted.

I did like your attempt to further your stereotype by adding in the hick commentary. Nice ad hominem. Proves nothing, but it’s a nice touch.

I guess in your world if you ignore it then it doesn't exist?

https://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/aggression/

"Interestingly, she brought up her huge dislike of things like cropped ears and tail-docking. When a dog has cropped ears, the ears are always in an "up and forward" position. Other dogs will almost always interpret a dog with cropped ears as being in a distance-increasing posture, which can lead to the other dog mirroring that behavior -- which leads to two dogs in more aggressive-type positions. It is hard not to think that the popularity of ear-cropping in 'pit bull' breeds has actually caused some of the "dog aggression" issues that people perceive because it actually spurs other dogs to react less invitingly to the dog with cropped ears, which can spur a little more rivalry between a couple of dogs. I also wonder if ear-cropping had something to do with Randall Lockwood's initial thoughts on "pit bulls' back in the mid-80s when he said that pit bulls didn't give warning signs before attacking -- because one of the major "warning signs" would be ear position -- and I don't know how much we understood about canine behavior when it comes to body position subtleties in the 1980s."

Now, I ask again, what the heck have you proven? Posting a bunch of quotes form people saying they cropped the ears with no intention to fight the dog does not change the fact that ear cropping was invented to make the dog a better fighter. And yes, preventing damage during a fight does make the dog a better fighter, so you can drop that absurd contention.

 

[TheDude]

Headgear, goggles, and body armor can certainly be considered weapons. If you are using them to win a fight, then yes, it's a weapon.

 

[NUMBERICA]

That is not at all what I said. Your letting your emotions get the best of you. That's the problem discussing pits with people that own them. Their dog is always the perfect one.

Because your position that they're ALL time bombs is so fair and balanced.

 

[One Brow]

Because your position that they're ALL time bombs is so fair and balanced.

As long as you can't tell which bombs will go off, theyre all timebombs. Some are duds, but you don't know which.

 

[LogGrad98]

I guess in your world if you ignore it then it doesn't exist?

https://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/aggression/

"Interestingly, she brought up her huge dislike of things like cropped ears and tail-docking. When a dog has cropped ears, the ears are always in an "up and forward" position. Other dogs will almost always interpret a dog with cropped ears as being in a distance-increasing posture, which can lead to the other dog mirroring that behavior -- which leads to two dogs in more aggressive-type positions. It is hard not to think that the popularity of ear-cropping in 'pit bull' breeds has actually caused some of the "dog aggression" issues that people perceive because it actually spurs other dogs to react less invitingly to the dog with cropped ears, which can spur a little more rivalry between a couple of dogs. I also wonder if ear-cropping had something to do with Randall Lockwood's initial thoughts on "pit bulls' back in the mid-80s when he said that pit bulls didn't give warning signs before attacking -- because one of the major "warning signs" would be ear position -- and I don't know how much we understood about canine behavior when it comes to body position subtleties in the 1980s."

Now, I ask again, what the heck have you proven? Posting a bunch of quotes form people saying they cropped the ears with no intention to fight the dog does not change the fact that ear cropping was invented to make the dog a better fighter. And yes, preventing damage during a fight does make the dog a better fighter, so you can drop that absurd contention.

Please highlight the parts that prove it makes the dog with the cropped ears a better fighter and more ferocious. All this does it point out it might make the dog a target for other dogs (see highlights). The dog could still be a ***** and incapable of defending itself. It also says nothing about the intent of the owners in regards to having the dogs ears cropped.

You can keep posting the same quote over and over but repitition doesn't change meaning. Nothing in there says anything about the ear crop affecting the INHERENT TEMPERAMENT of the dog, merely that it MIGHT affect the way OTHER DOGS respond to it. That dog might still be the kindest happiest dog in the world, but his look pisses off other dogs. All that shows is you might have the Urkel of dogs, with looks that piss off bullies but in no way any more vicious than any other dog.

 

[kwb]

Please highlight the parts that prove it makes the dog with the cropped ears a better fighter and more ferocious. All this does it point out it might make the dog a target for other dogs (see highlights). The dog could still be a ***** and incapable of defending itself. It also says nothing about the intent of the owners in regards to having the dogs ears cropped.

You can keep posting the same quote over and over but repitition doesn't change meaning. Nothing in there says anything about the ear crop affecting the INHERENT TEMPERAMENT of the dog, merely that it MIGHT affect the way OTHER DOGS respond to it. That dog might still be the kindest happiest dog in the world, but his look pisses off other dogs. All that shows is you might have the Urkel of dogs, with looks that piss off bullies but in no way any more vicious than any other dog.

Story of my life when it comes to other dudes and me wearing my Affliction t-shirts. Well not t-shirts now. Just busted out my thermals bro.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

For all of you idiots saying the cropped ears (or headgear, body armor, etc) isn't a weapon:

https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weapon

weap·on   [wep-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1. any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.
2. anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim: the deadly weapon of satire.
3. Zoology. any part or organ serving for attack or defense, as claws, horns, teeth, or stings.

A sword, rifle, or cannon are weapons because their main purpose is for attacking. Yes, you may also use a sword, or other "weapon" to defend in some cases as well.

A shield is not a weapon because it's main purpose is defense. You may use a shield as a weapon by bashing it into someone's face, but that does not make it a weapon.

You can use a helmet to help you win a battle, but that does not make the helmet a weapon. You may use a helmet as a weapon to headbutt someone, but it is still not a weapon. It's main purpose is still to protect the head.

What dog with cropped ears has used those cropped ears directly to hurt another animal, as a weapon? It may give them an advantage so other dogs cannot bite their ears which happens often in dog fights, but it is still not a weapon.

Whoever wrote that dictionary entry for weapon, should be shot............. with some cropped ears.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Salty's gone and crapped on an argument that has SOME merit again.

-For starters, I fail to see any reason to dock tails or crop ears, pits or not. Style is not a reason to mutilate another being.
-Maybe cropping ears and docking tails has no effect on the aggression of a dog, but no one is arguing that it makes a dog LESS aggressive, so why bother?
-Other dogs being more aggressive because of the lack of physical cues seems realistic. If that is the reality, then it is a relevant piece to the discussion (even if it's become some bizarre battle of irrelevant minutiae).
-cropping and docking is not a weapon.

Can we not all agree that it is somewhere between ****ed up and unwise to engage in docking and cropping in general?

 

[SaltyDawg]

A sword, rifle, or cannon are weapons because their main purpose is for attacking. Yes, you may also use a sword, or other "weapon" to defend in some cases as well.

A shield is not a weapon because it's main purpose is defense. You may use a shield as a weapon by bashing it into someone's face, but that does not make it a weapon.

You can use a helmet to help you win a battle, but that does not make the helmet a weapon. You may use a helmet as a weapon to headbutt someone, but it is still not a weapon. It's main purpose is still to protect the head.

What dog with cropped ears has used those cropped ears directly to hurt another animal, as a weapon? It may give them an advantage so other dogs cannot bite their ears which happens often in dog fights, but it is still not a weapon.

Whoever wrote that dictionary entry for weapon, should be shot............. with some cropped ears.

So then you are disagreeing with the published definitions in the posted link?

 

[Scat]

So then you are disagreeing with the published definitions in the posted link?

Clearly.

 

[LogGrad98]

Can we not all agree that it is somewhere between ****ed up and unwise to engage in docking and cropping in general?

Agreed. There are some misguided owners out there who like their pet to fit that part of the breed standard or like that look better so they still do it. Tail bobbing is even called out in the AKC standard for some breeds. They shouldn't simply from the standpoint of why hurt the dog when it is unnecessary.

But if they do, it certainly isn't proof in any way shape or form that the owner intends on making the dog more vicious or that the owner is any less sensible or responsible than an owner who doesn't do that.

Perhaps over time it will fade out, as it has in some breeds, even taking pitbulls into account where tail docking is not done at all per breed standards and ear cropping is dwindling in popularity.

 

[TheDude]

Down Fido! What's gotten into you? You never act this way...

 

[Jazz Spazz]

So then you are disagreeing with the published definitions in the posted link?

I have a few questions for you.

Can your hair be a "weapon" against cold weather?
If so, how does your hair damage, or cause harm to cold weather?

Is your skin a weapon against anything?
If so, how does your skin, alone, damage or cause harm to something else?

Is a turtle's shell a weapon used by a turtle to harm other creatures?
If so, how is that shell used by a turtle to damage or cause harm to another creature?

A weapon's use has the aim of causing damage or harm. Depending on what it is it may also be used to defend against certain things.
Something that has the main, or sole purpose to defend, is not considered a weapon no matter how many definitions you pull up from the internet or wikipedia. I can pull up just as many that prove my point.

Can I use a pot as a weapon? Yes, but does that mean I should define every pot in the world as a weapon?
Can I use my words as a weapon? Sure, but does that mean that every word I say is a weapon?

Explain to me how someone can use cropped ears as a weapon to harm someone or something? Would it not be the dog's training that is the weapon, or the dogs teeth that are the weapons? I do not think you will be able to adequately explain to me how cropped ears can mentally or physically harm something in and of themselves.

 

[TroutBum]

Of course he can't, but he's sure going to try.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I have a few questions for you.

Can your hair be a "weapon" against cold weather?
If so, how does your hair damage, or cause harm to cold weather?

Is your skin a weapon against anything?
If so, how does your skin, alone, damage or cause harm to something else?

Is a turtle's shell a weapon used by a turtle to harm other creatures?
If so, how is that shell used by a turtle to damage or cause harm to another creature?

A weapon's use has the aim of causing damage or harm. Depending on what it is it may also be used to defend against certain things.
Something that has the main, or sole purpose to defend, is not considered a weapon no matter how many definitions you pull up from the internet or wikipedia. I can pull up just as many that prove my point.

Can I use a pot as a weapon? Yes, but does that mean I should define every pot in the world as a weapon?
Can I use my words as a weapon? Sure, but does that mean that every word I say is a weapon?

Explain to me how someone can use cropped ears as a weapon to harm someone or something? Would it not be the dog's training that is the weapon, or the dogs teeth that are the weapons? I do not think you will be able to adequately explain to me how cropped ears can mentally or physically harm something in and of themselves.

A weapon is also something used for defense (as the posted definition said). Cropped ears prevent damage during a fight. Something that prevents the dog from taking damage during a fight, therefore allowing the dog to inflict more damage (win the fight) is a weapon.

If your argument is with that definition, take it up with dictionary.com. I didn't make the definition up, I just agreed with it.

 

[bigb]

I realize this is going way back in the thread, but I have something to say about this.

I cannot begin to tell you all how stupid the phrase, "Pit Bulls were bred to kill or attack" is. Really? So you mean to tell me that if I buy a chocolate lab or any lab for that instance that I can just shoot a duck and that dog will know to go retrieve the duck and bring it back to me without any training at all? Given that they are mostly "bred" to duck hunt? Give me a break.

As far as your relation to labs: Like I said earlier, I currently have two labs. I bought both of them at 5 weeks of age. The first time I ever sat down with them at home they would retrieve things and bring them right back to me. Granted, it wasn't picture perfect and exactly as it should have been, but they brought it to me. At 5-6 weeks old. With no "training". It's bred into them. That's what they do.
In general, I agree with your statement about Pit Bulls. I've seen and dealt with sweet and nice pit bulls. But that doesn't change the fact that they are a dangerous breed.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

A weapon is also something used for defense (as the posted definition said). Cropped ears prevent damage during a fight. Something that prevents the dog from taking damage during a fight, therefore allowing the dog to inflict more damage (win the fight) is a weapon.

If your argument is with that definition, take it up with dictionary.com. I didn't make the definition up, I just agreed with it.

It may prevent the dog from taking damage during the fight, but it does not therefore allow the dog to inflict more damage. The dog can still inflict the same amount of damage as it could when it had "uncropped" ears. Sharpening the teeth or claws may allow the dog to inflict more damage.

Just because some person puts a definition on the internet does not mean it is right.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weapon
1weap•on
noun \ˈwe-pən\
Definition of WEAPON
1
: something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2
: a means of contending against another

There, this website does not mention anything about defense, so I'm right. Hahahaha nannna nanna boo boo
My internet site is better than yours.

I disagree with the dictionary.com definition in that the definition is either poorly worded, or the person that wrote the definition did not think it through. Because you agree with it, I also disagree with you.

I throw down the gauntlet, I slap you in the face with a glove, I challenge you to a duel.
The weapon of choice, is ... duhdunduh... "Cropped Ears"... To the Death!!!!

SaltyDawg: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king. Oh, and cropped ears are weapons.

JazzSpazz: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony, and cropped ears are not weapons.

JazzSpazz: Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you, and internet websites are not the authority on the english language.

JazzSpazz: Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.

 

[TroutBum]

It may prevent the dog from taking damage during the fight, but it does not therefore allow the dog to inflict more damage. The dog can still inflict the same amount of damage as it could when it had "uncropped" ears. Sharpening the teeth or claws may allow the dog to inflict more damage.

Just because some person puts a definition on the internet does not mean it is right.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weapon
1weap•on
noun \ˈwe-pən\
Definition of WEAPON
1
: something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2
: a means of contending against another

There, this website does not mention anything about defense, so I'm right. Hahahaha nannna nanna boo boo
My internet site is better than yours.

I disagree with the dictionary.com definition in that the definition is either poorly worded, or the person that wrote the definition did not think it through. Because you agree with it, I also disagree with you.

I throw down the gauntlet, I slap you in the face with a glove, I challenge you to a duel.
The weapon of choice, is ... duhdunduh... "Cropped Ears"... To the Death!!!!

SaltyDawg: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king. Oh, and cropped ears are weapons.

JazzSpazz: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony, and cropped ears are not weapons.

JazzSpazz: Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you, and internet websites are not the authority on the english language.

JazzSpazz: Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.

Solid.

 

[SaltyDawg]

It may prevent the dog from taking damage during the fight, but it does not therefore allow the dog to inflict more damage. The dog can still inflict the same amount of damage as it could when it had "uncropped" ears. Sharpening the teeth or claws may allow the dog to inflict more damage.

Just because some person puts a definition on the internet does not mean it is right.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weapon
1weap•on
noun \ˈwe-pən\
Definition of WEAPON
1
: something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2
: a means of contending against another

There, this website does not mention anything about defense, so I'm right. Hahahaha nannna nanna boo boo
My internet site is better than yours.

I disagree with the dictionary.com definition in that the definition is either poorly worded, or the person that wrote the definition did not think it through. Because you agree with it, I also disagree with you.

I throw down the gauntlet, I slap you in the face with a glove, I challenge you to a duel.
The weapon of choice, is ... duhdunduh... "Cropped Ears"... To the Death!!!!

SaltyDawg: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king. Oh, and cropped ears are weapons.

JazzSpazz: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony, and cropped ears are not weapons.

JazzSpazz: Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you, and internet websites are not the authority on the english language.

JazzSpazz: Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.

Disagree with it all you want. Just know that arguing it here does you no good because I didn't invent it.

And yes, preventing damage during a fight does enable you to inflict more damage. If you are incapacitated (which cropping the ears helps to prevent), you can't inflict damage.