Lockout!!!

[mellow]

honest question - why would the players be hurt by decertification? Isn't the worst case scenario a removal of salary cap and a removal of guaranteed contracts? Isn't that better for the players than accepting whats on the table?

I think for every player who would benifit from decertification (ie: Wade, James, Garnett, Pierce, Rose) there are atleast two players who would be hurt (ie: Areanas, Lewis, Barganni, Miller, Billups, Davis, Brand, Memo, Jefferson, Jamison, Roy, Iggy, Hamilton, Joe Johnson?, M. Williams, Maggette, etc)

Much has been said about the owners income gap, but not enough has been said about the differences between the handful of superstars and the rank and file of the NBAPU.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

The owners have leverage precisely because they're not making a profit. They would never forego the profit of staging professional basketball games just to squeeze out a few more pennies. In the previous two CBA negotiations, the players had leverage for that exact reason. In the recent NFL standoff, everyone knew it would get resolved because the owners stood to lose too much money.

This time around, the owners are willing to take the operating losses. Yeah, they're looking to get fat on this deal. They ate 2008. NBA Attendance declined in at least 2009. The players are simply negotiating at the wrong time. Presuming the economy fully rebounds (huge presumption), they would have been a lot better off negotiating next year or the year after. They're not. So they need to figure out how to lose this and stop crying about fair.

Exactly what I was thinking. The leverage they have is not inherent or automatic. They have this leverage because they have so little to lose. It can't get much worse than losing $300 million (or less depending on who your speaking to), so cancelling the season is the right move.

If they are just a bunch of cheap and evil owners, why wouldn't they have demanded these changes back in 2005's CBA negotiation? Players had a lot of leverage then, and the new CBA was quickly agreed to without missing games.

 

[freakazoid]

This is the current moment of truth confronting the owners and players, and adding to the fog are seven “super agents” who are attempting to use their clients to push what is largely their own agenda. Decertification is the weapon the agents are trying to put in their players’ hands.

https://basketball.realgm.com/artic..._Where_Their_Decertification_Is#ixzz1d46tgEU2

 

[Gameface]

I think it's already been pointed out in this thread that by missing games both sides are losing more revenue than the difference between a 53-47 split or 50-50 split would make for either side. So, some people are saying the owners stand to make butt loads off the players even if the BRI split was 43-57 (in favor of players) but because the owners are so ultra 1% greedy they are actually losing more money then they'll ever get back on the sweetest deal just so they can make even more at the expense of the players.

You guys saying that (TIS, NUMBERICA) realize the flaw in your logic, right?

 

[TheItinerantSon]

I think it's already been pointed out in this thread that by missing games both sides are losing more revenue than the difference between a 53-47 split or 50-50 split would make for either side. So, some people are saying the owners stand to make butt loads off the players even if the BRI split was 43-57 (in favor of players) but because the owners are so ultra 1% greedy they are actually losing more money then they'll ever get back on the sweetest deal just so they can make even more at the expense of the players.

You guys saying that (TIS, NUMBERICA) realize the flaw in your logic, right?

The owners are willing to lose a season because the increase in sales value for a franchise will rise with a more favorable CBA.

Also, some owners are tired of big name Free Agents having the freedom to chose their place of work.

Also, franchises in tiny markets that probably can't sustain teams in the long run are taking nominal yearly losses and the owners of these franchises feel that its easier to steal money from the talent than it is to negotiate revenue sharing from the big market owners.

 

[Gameface]

The owners are willing to lose a season because the increase in sales value for a franchise will rise with a more favorable CBA.

Also, some owners are tired of big name Free Agents having the freedom to chose their place of work.

Also, franchises in tiny markets that probably can't sustain teams in the long run are taking nominal yearly losses and the owners of these franchises feel that its easier to steal money from the talent than it is to negotiate revenue sharing from the big market owners.

Define "stealing" please.

 

[carolinajazz]

I firmly believe the owners stance to be 100% financially motivated, and that this lockout is simply them flexing their muscles to get even more of what they don't remotely need.

.....of course, NBA players are struggling big time to support there families and pay even the most basic of monthly bills on time, while still finding just a tad bit of money for there favorite charities. Then there's the child support payments that have skyrocketed......and do you know how much it costs to slap those "can't do without" tattoo's that must cover every square inch of flesh so you can "look cool!"

 

[carolinajazz]

...correct me if I'm wrong but the general consensus is that decertification won't work for the players because they would have to prove to the judge/courts that they are being deprived of making a living playing basketball by the owners......but in-fact that is not the case since already a number of them are playing basketball for a living in the European leagues and overseas?

 

[freakazoid]

Kobe Bryant is urging the NBA's owners to meet with the players before Wednesday.

“We need for the two sides to get together again before Wednesday, because we’re too close to getting a deal done,” Bryant told Yahoo! Sports on Monday. “We need to iron out the last system items and save this from spiraling into a nuclear winter.”

A league source says the two sides are organizing a meeting for Tuesday.

Read more: https://basketball.realgm.com/wiret...es_Meet_To_Avoid_Nuclear_Winter#ixzz1d4b7oDSI

Sports Illustrated's Sam Amick spoke to two agents who represent a combined 19 NBA players.

The agents said all 19 players are in favor of taking the owners' current offer.

 

[NotDeadYet]

Very good article by Larry Coon about what it would mean if the players decertify the union:
https://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/pag...104/nba-decertification-threat-strong-message

OK, so assuming they de-certify, can individual players who just want to play NBA basketball sign new contracts to do so? Or is this somehow illegal?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Read more: https://basketball.realgm.com/wiret...es_Meet_To_Avoid_Nuclear_Winter#ixzz1d4b7oDSI

Kobe Bryant: Voice of Reason

 

[Dr. Jones]

Kobe Bryant: Voice of Reason

"Shhhhhhh ... shut up .. this WILL not hurt .. shhhhh .. "

 

[green]

Only in this country do people seem to think teams from 2nd and 3rd tier locales have some divine right to be competitive for championships. If there isn't parity in this league, thats not because the rules are unfair - its because the world is unfair. New York and LA are bigger and better than utah and milwaukee at every single thing in the world. Why should basketball be any different?

Would you expect the top opera singers in the country to live and work year round in charlotte and minnesota, just so that you could enforce parity in opera perfomances with megalopolis like new york?

Small market teams like indiana and sacremento should simply be thankful that they have a team and get to see great teams visit their town to perform. That they're trying to rig the system to dilute the product to the point that they can compete is bad for the quality of the game.

I can't believe I am responding to you, but let's say LA, NY, Chicago and Dallas decide they are going to run the league and keep small market teams around to develop talent. What happens as Utah, NO, Minnesota, etc lose money year after year? The teams go bankrupt and dissolve. That leaves a 4-5 team league, that 4-5 cities care about. That means that those large market teams will lose a lot of money. ESPN pays less for their games. TBS and TNT drop them completely. They become the USFL or MLS. Unlike Opera, whose audience is much, much smaller, the NBA NEEDS small market teams. They need schedule filler. They need 82 games. If small market teams disappear, the NBA disappears.

 

[TheItinerantSon]

all of european soccer does fine with this system...

 

[green]

all of european soccer does fine with this system...

Exactly why I can't believe I responded...Basketball is not equivalent to soccer. Nobody cares enough about basketball to carry 4-5 teams, and the players union would kill small market teams with jets, five star hotels, per diems, etc. The NBA would have to allow small market teams to sign a team full of Ronnie Price's at $150,000 a year, bus rides, small high school gyms, etc.

NBA basketball is more equivalent to European basketball if allowed to follow capitalism.

 

[carolinajazz]

.....who cares what anyone thinks.....the season is going to be deep-sixed and it deserves to be!

 

[Dr. Jones]

.....who cares what anyone thinks.....the season is going to be deep-sixed and it deserves to be!

uhhh .. you do. Otherwise you'd have, what, 1 post? .. and it would read like this;

Sign idea!! "I love Jazz tats!!1!"

 

[freakazoid]

Kobe Bryant: Voice of Reason

He's got to be ****ting bricks at the thought of losing the entire season. Those career numbers are very important to his legacy.

 

[Coloradojazzfan]

uhhh .. you do. Otherwise you'd have, what, 1 post? .. and it would read like this;

Sign idea!! "I love Jazz tats!!1!"

This.

 

[gregbroncs]

my understanding is that the nfl decertification was overturned because it was ruled to be fake...as in the players were still interested in negotiating.

My understanding is that the NBA players have a much better chance because they have proven through negotiation that the owners aren't offering any concessions.

I understood it that they could not prove undo hardship. The NBA players will have almost no cause to prove undo hardship. higher pay and better other options than the NFL. And the owners have made lots of consessions. All the players have really done is drop their pay. Owners dropped their hard and flex cap they also raised their pay during negotiations. So it seems to me that the players have not been negotiating in good faith anymore than the owners have.

Also the NBA has already filed to maintain their exemption from anti-trust laws even if the players decertify. Can somebody explain to me why the anti-trust exemption doesn't mandate profit sharing? Isn't the whole rationale of an anti-trust exemption that hte league is composed of teams who are not competing business entitities? At that point shouldn't that logic dictate that the teams split net profits evenly (ending this bizarre notion that the league is losing money just because some teams are located in inadequate markets)?

If teams were sharing money wouldn't that show they were working as one entity? Wouldn't that also make them more vulnerable to anti-trust suits? So because they have very little revenue sharing doesn't that show that they are in fact competing business entities? Are they not also competing with European teams for the services of players as well?

Only in this country do people seem to think teams from 2nd and 3rd tier locales have some divine right to be competitive for championships. If there isn't parity in this league, thats not because the rules are unfair - its because the world is unfair. New York and LA are bigger and better than utah and milwaukee at every single thing in the world. Why should basketball be any different?

Would you expect the top opera singers in the country to live and work year round in charlotte and minnesota, just so that you could enforce parity in opera perfomances with megalopolis like new york?

Small market teams like indiana and sacremento should simply be thankful that they have a team and get to see great teams visit their town to perform. That they're trying to rig the system to dilute the product to the point that they can compete is bad for the quality of the game.

The last part of this is just too stupid to deserve a reply.