Game Thread Mar 21, 2022 05:30PM MT: Jazz at Nets

[SoberasHotRod]

I don't hate Durant or anything, but those warrior teams weren't really fair. They were so far ahead of any other teams they didn't even have to try. They had a low risk of injury because they could just coast through the regular season. It's really crazy that the Rockets were so close to knocking them off in that series.

 

[KqWIN]

I think all these guys feel they have something to prove until they retire. I think he feels great about his two titles and now he is trying to do it in a little bit more of a solo role. Just like Lebron, he has a shot to get one or two in a different way and then he will be 4 time champion, not 2 time champ with 2 asterisk titles.

I do think Giannis' title will continue to be more impressive, but he was like a millimeter away from getting bounced in the second round by a KD team that had almost nothing else. Will people remember that the Brooklyn team would have likely beat the Bucks if Harden or Kyrie were healthy? Should we put an asterisk on that title?

Did those titles and finals mvps solidify his standing as a top 15 NBA player... probably not. If he won no titles staying in OKC (as he would have since everyone says GS was an unbeatable juggernaut even without KD) - then his resume is waaaaaaaay less impressive. Stacked team or not he went out against the second or first best player in NBA history and won... he hit the key shots... he was the best player on his team. Is CP3's legacy more impressive? Will KD be remembered as a better player than Chuck, Mailman, Ewing?

Winning a title is hard/impossible... almost all title teams are stacked... some more than others but Magic, Bird, etc. aren't ding'd because they did it with the teams that drafted them. I mean is KD, Steph, Green, Klay way more stacked than MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Toni Kukoc with great role players like Harper, Longly, Kerr... It wasn't guaranteed to be a championship either... remember when prime Lebron, Wade and Bosh lost to Dirk?

It wasn't a waste of time and it will help his legacy to have the titles... even if the degree of difficulty isn't good enough for some.

I just don’t think his legacy is much different if he stayed on OKC, or went anywhere else besides GSW, and didn’t win. He would be clowned on for never winning…but he did win and he’s getting clowned on for taking the easiest and most obvious path. It’s not close to LeBron joining up with his friends in Miami or even the Boston big 3. It has very little to do with him leaving the team that drafted him and everything to do with the team he joined. This was the Warriors who may have already been the greatest team of all time with Harrison Barnes in place of him.

What he did was put himself in a lose lose situation. If he didn’t win the titles, how embarrassing that would be for him to bog down an all time great team. He did win the titles, everyone is going to say they would have done it without him and they would have been heavy favorites to do so. You can say….no the Warriors wouldn’t have won, but the very large majority of people would pick the Warriors to win again and again without him. He spent the prime of his career in a situation where he couldn’t prove himself. He reached the peak of all peaks, finals MVP 2x, and got very little respect for it.

No one is going to say KD is better than player X, Y, Z because he won championships with GSW. They might say he’s a better player for other reasons, but those two championships are hardly tipping the scale and in some cases are just going to reinforce the cupcake narrative. Even if you’re going to say the two GSW are significantly better than no titles, there’s no doubt he punted on the opportunity to be even greater. He forfeited a great deal of his potential to play for GSW.

Now if he wins with BKN, completely different story for him. Even though he built his own super team and BKN did not draft him, people would respect it so much more. I think his prime years would have been better spent doing what he’s doing now, whether it was with OKC or anyone else besides GSW.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I don't hate Durant or anything, but those warrior teams weren't really fair. They were so far ahead of any other teams they didn't even have to try. They had a low risk of injury because they could just coast through the regular season. It's really crazy that the Rockets were so close to knocking them off in that series.

Unpopular Opinion: It was really good for the league

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Unpopular Opinion: It was really good for the league

I can see that in some ways, but curious why you think so?

 

[KqWIN]

I don't hate Durant or anything, but those warrior teams weren't really fair. They were so far ahead of any other teams they didn't even have to try. They had a low risk of injury because they could just coast through the regular season. It's really crazy that the Rockets were so close to knocking them off in that series.

Agreed and fair or not, this is how most people see the situation. Of course no championship is “east”, but if a Dirk/Giannis type championship is a perfect 10 in terms of respect, the GSW titles were like a 1.1. KD spent his prime years in a lose-lose situation. If they lost, it would be a tremendous failure. If they win…well of course they did.

Maybe KD is in a better spot now than if he didn’t go and still hadn’t won….but not by much. But if he didn’t go to GSW and was able to beat them and win…he would have inserted himself into the Bird/Magic tier. Even the coasting during the RS really put a damper on just how good he was back then (and still is potentially). Like you said, he wasn’t challenged.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I can see that in some ways, but curious why you think so?

The general sports fan just loves dominance in general. It creates strong opinions and strong storylines. The Celtics and Lakers are as popular as they are thanks to their own extremely overpowered super teams throughout history.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

*and the Jazz were never good enough during the Warriors dominant stretch run to have a chance at getting to the finals, much less winning it. Not like their dominant stretch ruined Utah's chance to win a ring. Not sure why a bunch of posters who only care about the NBA as it pertains to the Jazz have to act like KD committed the worst basketball atrocity imaginable.

 

[SoUjazzfan]

The general sports fan just loves dominance in general. It creates strong opinions and strong storylines. The Celtics and Lakers are as popular as they are thanks to their own extremely overpowered super teams throughout history.

It seems to be as important to have someone to root against as it is to have a team to root for. In my case my favorite teams are the Jazz and whoever is playing the lakers

 

[SoberasHotRod]

The general sports fan just loves dominance in general. It creates strong opinions and strong storylines. The Celtics and Lakers are as popular as they are thanks to their own extremely overpowered super teams throughout history.

Agreed, I'm pretty sure ratings during those years were really good. Whether it has been good or bad for the league, I think the Warriors dominating forced teams to be play more smart basketball. There was no way to out talent them, but you might be able to win a math equation against them. The extreme example being the Rockets, who almost did it.

The league was already moving in that direction, but it really took a huge leap during the Warriors run.

 

[LoPo]

The Warriors were stacked and KD is a bitch for selling out by going there. He will never be considered an all time great because he took the easy way.

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[Agent#00]

KD move to GS made me respect malone and Barkley more even though they didn't win a title.

 

[JazzGal]

KD move to GS made me respect malone and Barkley more even though they didn't win a title.

Malone went to the Lakers his last year to try to get a title. Didn't work. I haven't completely forgiven him yet.

But honestly, players should do whatever they believe is best for them within the rules. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

I just don’t think his legacy is much different if he stayed on OKC, or went anywhere else besides GSW, and didn’t win. He would be clowned on for never winning…but he did win and he’s getting clowned on for taking the easiest and most obvious path. It’s not close to LeBron joining up with his friends in Miami or even the Boston big 3. It has very little to do with him leaving the team that drafted him and everything to do with the team he joined. This was the Warriors who may have already been the greatest team of all time with Harrison Barnes in place of him.

What he did was put himself in a lose lose situation. If he didn’t win the titles, how embarrassing that would be for him to bog down an all time great team. He did win the titles, everyone is going to say they would have done it without him and they would have been heavy favorites to do so. You can say….no the Warriors wouldn’t have won, but the very large majority of people would pick the Warriors to win again and again without him. He spent the prime of his career in a situation where he couldn’t prove himself. He reached the peak of all peaks, finals MVP 2x, and got very little respect for it.

No one is going to say KD is better than player X, Y, Z because he won championships with GSW. They might say he’s a better player for other reasons, but those two championships are hardly tipping the scale and in some cases are just going to reinforce the cupcake narrative. Even if you’re going to say the two GSW are significantly better than no titles, there’s no doubt he punted on the opportunity to be even greater. He forfeited a great deal of his potential to play for GSW.

Now if he wins with BKN, completely different story for him. Even though he built his own super team and BKN did not draft him, people would respect it so much more. I think his prime years would have been better spent doing what he’s doing now, whether it was with OKC or anyone else besides GSW.

This is all just kinda skewed imo. Lebron, Wade, Bosh all in their prime joining up is very close to what GS had…. Like what team/players could he go to for your approval?

You also act like everyone clowns him when he’s got enormous respect from his peers and former players. A few internet pawns ain’t changing his legacy. He’s wildly ****ing popular so you are making the mistake of thinking the way you view his career is the same way everyone does… when the opposite is likely true.

Believe what you want but to call three years a waste when 2 years you won a title and we’re finals mvp is pretty stupid imo. They lost the year he got hurt ( I know Klay did too but guess what… without KD and with healthy Klay they likely lose).

Staying in OKC… instead of going to an amazing market with amazing players to win at the highest level… just so you can appease the hipster nba internet would have been pretty dumb.

 

[Gameface]

This is all just kinda skewed imo. Lebron, Wade, Bosh all in their prime joining up is very close to what GS had…. Like what team/players could he go to for your approval?

You also act like everyone clowns him when he’s got enormous respect from his peers and former players. A few internet pawns ain’t changing his legacy. He’s wildly ****ing popular so you are making the mistake of thinking the way you view his career is the same way everyone does… when the opposite is likely true.

Believe what you want but to call three years a waste when 2 years you won a title and we’re finals mvp is pretty stupid imo. They lost the year he got hurt ( I know Klay did too but guess what… without KD and with healthy Klay they likely lose).

Staying in OKC… instead of going to an amazing market with amazing players to win at the highest level… just so you can appease the hipster nba internet would have been pretty dumb.

I think KD is one of the very top players of this generation as far as skill and ability. I respect that.

That's not the same as legacy.

When you think of KD winning a championship, having the ring, do you think he made that happen? Will his legacy consider it like he went and got the Warriors a ring that they couldn't have gotten otherwise? Nah. He got a gumball machine ring. He went and put in time on a championship team, got his ring and then moved on like it was just a check in the box on his bingo card.

He had a path to be in the conversation as one of the all time greats. He isn't going to be in that conversation unless something significant happens.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think KD is one of the very top players of this generation as far as skill and ability. I respect that.

That's not the same as legacy.

When you think of KD winning a championship, having the ring, do you think he made that happen? Will his legacy consider it like he went and got the Warriors a ring that they couldn't have gotten otherwise? Nah. He got a gumball machine ring. He went and put in time on a championship team, got his ring and then moved on like it was just a check in the box on his bingo card.

He had a path to be in the conversation as one of the all time greats. He isn't going to be in that conversation unless something significant happens.

This is just wrong… it wasn’t the best basketball decision but if you think it’s a stain on his career you are wrong. It was smart for lifestyle, business, and his popularity is absolutely part of his legacy. He’s more popular because he went there.

That team had just lost in the finals. He was overkill but I promise they would not have won both titles without him. Their style lead them to winning a **** ton of regular season games but wasn’t going to be as dominant as other teams caught up with them… and Lebron was capable of propelling a team past them.

Do whatever you want with your personal record books… but the real records show multiple finals mvps and they contain no asterisks. He has plenty of other accolades and bonafides to back up his all time great status. Plenty of heavy favorites have fallen short… he heaped a ton of pressure on himself and he delivered. Steph rode shotgun for those title runs… is his legacy tarnished?

It’s gunner for us when it happens more organically but that is getting more and more rare.

 

[Agent#00]

Malone went to the Lakers his last year to try to get a title. Didn't work. I haven't completely forgiven him yet.

But honestly, players should do whatever they believe is best for them within the rules. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

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a little different though . Malone spent 18 years as a jazzman and 1 year as a laker before retiring. he was 40 that was his last. when jazz lost to the bulls he ran it back , he didn't join the bulls after losing. What made KD a cupcake is he didn't even try to compete. he could've formed a different super team to beat GS instead he chose the easiest path at the peak of his career, joined a 73-9 team. LeBron may have formed a super team in Miami but he did it to beat Boston's super team. he didn't join Boston. then LeBron formed another super team in Cleveland to beat GS, he didn't join GS. KD he is going to be remembered for this until he wins another ring. he even said he cant sleep for what he did. and malone ? he's fine up there with no rings hes gonna be remembered as the best power forward ever. so forgive him he didnt turn his back on us.

 

[KqWIN]

This is all just kinda skewed imo. Lebron, Wade, Bosh all in their prime joining up is very close to what GS had…. Like what team/players could he go to for your approval?

You also act like everyone clowns him when he’s got enormous respect from his peers and former players. A few internet pawns ain’t changing his legacy. He’s wildly ****ing popular so you are making the mistake of thinking the way you view his career is the same way everyone does… when the opposite is likely true.

Believe what you want but to call three years a waste when 2 years you won a title and we’re finals mvp is pretty stupid imo. They lost the year he got hurt ( I know Klay did too but guess what… without KD and with healthy Klay they likely lose).

Staying in OKC… instead of going to an amazing market with amazing players to win at the highest level… just so you can appease the hipster nba internet would have been pretty dumb.

I actually think the hipster NBA crowd is the NBA crowd that respects him most for his wins. Zach Lowe and Ben Taylor definitely aren’t the ones calling him cupcake. You talk to anyone on the street, they think going to the Warriors was soft and wasn’t a challenge at all. You can try to debate about why it was actually difficult, but fact is that the large majority of people saw it as unfair and hardly a challenge. There’s not a single person who didn’t think they’d dominate. So yeah, you can be the “we’ll actually” crowd on this but there’s a reason why Durant is seen as a cupcake even after winning 2 finals MVP.

His peers around the league are always going to respect him because of his talent. But to repeat my earlier point, they aren’t respecting him because he’s a 2x finals MVP. I think you’re crazy if you think his wild popularity and respect around the league comes from his time in GSW.

As far as which team he should go to, literally any other team besides the 73 win team that had already won without him. This is literally a once in an NBA history event. It does not compare to any other FA signing and is not close to the Heatles. There is no fine line that says this is ok and this is not….but those GSW championships are the least “respectful” championships ever won.

KD nearly got maximum value out of those 3 years, but he’s still clowned on more than ever and I’d say only a small minority respect him more because of his accomplishment. The respect he has would still be there if he never went to GSW and never won. I don’t think the person who says, “I respect KD more now that he won with GSW” exists. Idk, maybe you’re that person. I think most see it in the same vein as a ring chaser ring, which is crazy because he was arguably the best player in the world, but it’s understandable to feel that way because that GSW was so dominate and won without him.

Not all championships are created equal. We’ve been talking about the no-win scenario if he hadn’t gone to GSW, but there’s no question in my mind that if he won without GSW it would have been greater than anything he could have accomplished with GSW. A BKN ring would easily trump the accomplishment he had in GSW, for example. His prime would have been better spent chasing a title like he is now.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I actually think the hipster NBA crowd is the NBA crowd that respects him most for his wins. Zach Lowe and Ben Taylor definitely aren’t the ones calling him cupcake. You talk to anyone on the street, they think going to the Warriors was soft and wasn’t a challenge at all. You can try to debate about why it was actually difficult, but fact is that the large majority of people saw it as unfair and hardly a challenge. There’s not a single person who didn’t think they’d dominate. So yeah, you can be the “we’ll actually” crowd on this but there’s a reason why Durant is seen as a cupcake even after winning 2 finals MVP.

His peers around the league are always going to respect him because of his talent. But to repeat my earlier point, they aren’t respecting him because he’s a 2x finals MVP. I think you’re crazy if you think his wild popularity and respect around the league comes from his time in GSW.

As far as which team he should go to, literally any other team besides the 73 win team that had already won without him. This is literally a once in an NBA history event. It does not compare to any other FA signing and is not close to the Heatles. There is no fine line that says this is ok and this is not….but those GSW championships are the least “respectful” championships ever won.

KD nearly got maximum value out of those 3 years, but he’s still clowned on more than ever and I’d say only a small minority respect him more because of his accomplishment. The respect he has would still be there if he never went to GSW and never won. I don’t think the person who says, “I respect KD more now that he won with GSW” exists. Idk, maybe you’re that person. I think most see it in the same vein as a ring chaser ring, which is crazy because he was arguably the best player in the world, but it’s understandable to feel that way because that GSW was so dominate and won without him.

Not all championships are created equal. We’ve been talking about the no-win scenario if he hadn’t gone to GSW, but there’s no question in my mind that if he won without GSW it would have been greater than anything he could have accomplished with GSW. A BKN ring would easily trump the accomplishment he had in GSW, for example. His prime would have been better spent chasing a title like he is now.

Wait so all the people on the street don't respect him but he's also wildly popular and gets more AS votes than people with 100% approval ratings like Giannis. Part of the reason he is more popular now is he went to one of the biggest markets in the world and won 2 straight titles. He was very popular before, but his clout absolutely improved. So he's widely accepted by his peers, wildly popular as demonstrated by his top tier AS voting, has an amazing resume, is respected by hipster NBA (Zach really isn't hipster NBA imo), but everyone on the street clowns him? Totally makes sense.

People also don't clown him... RW clowned him for a minute until KD curb stomped the league for 3 years. Westbrook was the people's champ and now look at him.

You also assume a team is going to have perfect health... Clips were expected to be heavy favs when they put PG and Kawhi together and they have never been healthy. GS got exceptional injury luck until the Raps finals. He also didn't know what other super teams would form. He wasn't gifted to rings... he won them... his path was made easy but there have been plenty of dominant teams that run through the playoffs like they did. All the rings count.

 

[KqWIN]

Wait so all the people on the street don't respect him but he's also wildly popular and gets more AS votes than people with 100% approval ratings like Giannis. Part of the reason he is more popular now is he went to one of the biggest markets in the world and won 2 straight titles. He was very popular before, but his clout absolutely improved. So he's widely accepted by his peers, wildly popular as demonstrated by his top tier AS voting, has an amazing resume, is respected by hipster NBA (Zach really isn't hipster NBA imo), but everyone on the street clowns him? Totally makes sense.

People also don't clown him... RW clowned him for a minute until KD curb stomped the league for 3 years. Westbrook was the people's champ and now look at him.

You also assume a team is going to have perfect health... Clips were expected to be heavy favs when they put PG and Kawhi together and they have never been healthy. GS got exceptional injury luck until the Raps finals. He also didn't know what other super teams would form. He wasn't gifted to rings... he won them... his path was made easy but there have been plenty of dominant teams that run through the playoffs like they did. All the rings count.

They don’t respect him for winning those championships, not in the same way as other players. His popularity did not come from the Warriors. All the respect he has right now, he would have without the Warriors. Much of the hate he receives today is because of his decision to join the Warriors.

You can’t convince me that KD is popular because of those rings/market and not because of everything besides those rings. You’re conflating his popularity with his championships. The championships hardly increased public opinion of him. He was already one the 3-4 most popular players in the league.

All rings count, but they are not the same. The Warriors were bigger favorites than any team ever. They had already won a championship and just came off a 73 win season. Beating the Kings does not feel the same as beating the Suns even if they are both W’s. When KD went to the Warriors everyone assumed the championship was a forgone conclusion so it was hard to be impressed by their victories. There are only 3 teams in NBA history who were odds on favorites to win the title. All three are KD Warriors teams.

What’s undeniable is that KD punted on the opportunity to reach greater heights. It’s not debatable that a championship on any other team would have done more for his legacy. For a player of his caliber, he could of accomplished more greatness than winning on what was already one of the most dominant teams ever. He forfeited his chance to do so in his prime because he joined the Warriors.

 

[LoPo]

This is all just kinda skewed imo. Lebron, Wade, Bosh all in their prime joining up is very close to what GS had…. Like what team/players could he go to for your approval?

You also act like everyone clowns him when he’s got enormous respect from his peers and former players. A few internet pawns ain’t changing his legacy. He’s wildly ****ing popular so you are making the mistake of thinking the way you view his career is the same way everyone does… when the opposite is likely true.

Believe what you want but to call three years a waste when 2 years you won a title and we’re finals mvp is pretty stupid imo. They lost the year he got hurt ( I know Klay did too but guess what… without KD and with healthy Klay they likely lose).

Staying in OKC… instead of going to an amazing market with amazing players to win at the highest level… just so you can appease the hipster nba internet would have been pretty dumb.

Please don't compare the Miami situation to the GS one. That is reckless and disrespectful.

Miami hadn't made it out of the first round for 3 postseasons prior to the Decision. Toronto also was a first round exit team with Bosh. Danny Ferry had tanked Cleveland's chances to progress. Those guys went to Miami along with a brand new coach in the hopes to build something.

Durant left a Western Confercence Finals team that was leading GS in that series. His team could have and should have won. After losing the series, he leaves that success of a team to join the 73 win Warriors who had just barely lost to Cleveland in probably the best series in NBA history.

People act like LeBron did something dirty with the Decision whereas Durant did the dirtiest, most cop-out, sandbagging move in league history.

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