Donovan Mitchell unlikely to ask for trade per ESPN’s Brian Windhorst

[Handlogten's Heros]

If your reasoning for sticking with Don this year is because you think you can convince him to stay and build around him… I think it’s naive but I get it.

If your reasoning is to keep him 12 not months just to get a slightly better deal I think it’s penny wise and pound foolish.

With Rudy we could sell a reasonable bluff that we will just keep them and retool with our two all stars… we were already on the clock with Donovan and the Rudy trade signals that the clock is now moving double time. Not saying we have to do the Heat deal or that it’s even available… I do think you work like hell to settle it before the season starts.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Even if DM wants out it's perfectly understandable. Name me one star player in the middle of his prime that is just willing to sit there to watch his team do a full tear down and say "I'm OK with it." Just one.

Beal, but he was always about the hometown money.

 

[LoPo]

If your reasoning for sticking with Don this year is because you think you can convince him to stay and build around him… I think it’s naive but I get it.

If your reasoning is to keep him 12 not months just to get a slightly better deal I think it’s penny wise and pound foolish.

With Rudy we could sell a reasonable bluff that we will just keep them and retool with our two all stars… we were already on the clock with Donovan and the Rudy trade signals that the clock is now moving double time. Not saying we have to do the Heat deal or that it’s even available… I do think you work like hell to settle it before the season starts.

I think the solution is to plan #1 but do #2 if you have to.

I want to win. I don't believe in tanking unless its the only option due to injuries or that poor of a roster.

Trust the coach

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[jom2003]

Beal, but he was always about the hometown money.

wiz never did a full teardown. they fake contend last season with the westbrick acquisition after wall was done. the goal was always the playoffs for them to appease beal

 

[KqWIN]

I mean that’s cute and macho but Presti is not a **** you negotiator at all… and he’s done just fine. I think there are ways to get what you want by working with players and GMs… we can dig in and not settle and drive a hard bargain and come out a big loser too.

I don’t think settling for the best deal is less macho or means you lost the trade or some BS. If you canvas the market and survey what is there and project what can come the best answer may very well be settling for 80% of what you’d hope to get.

It’s not a macho thing at all. I don’t think Presti makes a living by taking 80% on all his deals and not trying to negotiate for more. I don’t dislike 80% because of anything macho….I just don’t think it’s good business to settle for 80%. Really, I have no idea how you tied saying no and negotiating harder to benign macho, but I promise you it has zero to do with being macho and everything to do with simply not taking a bad deal.

Somewhat unrelated….but I don’t even think Presti is some mastermind negotiator and someone to idolize. Lowe said it best, you always win when you’re trying to tank. It’s the easiest job in the business. When he had all the pieces to win a title, he fumbled the bag horribly. We’ll see how round two goes.

Whoever you idolize as a GM, I’m almost certain they didn’t find their success by taking losing deals.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It’s not a macho thing at all. I don’t think Presti makes a living by taking 80% on all his deals and not trying to negotiate for more. I don’t dislike 80% because of anything macho….I just don’t think it’s good business to settle for 80%. Really, I have no idea how you tied saying no and negotiating harder to benign macho, but I promise you it has zero to do with being macho and everything to do with simply not taking a bad deal.

Somewhat unrelated….but I don’t even think Presti is some mastermind negotiator and someone to idolize. Lowe said it best, you always win when you’re trying to tank. It’s the easiest job in the business. When he had all the pieces to win a title, he fumbled the bag horribly. We’ll see how round two goes.

Whoever you idolize as a GM, I’m almost certain they didn’t find their success by taking losing deals.

You literally said we need more **** you to our negotiations… that’s some hardcore machismo.

This whole win every deal thing is awesome when there is no pressure to get a deal done… the clips probably gave up 125% of value to get the PG deal done… did they lose the deal?

 

[KqWIN]

You literally said we need more **** you to our negotiations… that’s some hardcore machismo.

This whole win every deal thing is awesome when there is no pressure to get a deal done… the clips probably gave up 125% of value to get the PG deal done… did they lose the deal?

I don’t associate a middle finger with machismo, but whatever, it’s completely irrelevant because obviously it’s not what’s driving my opinion. It’s accepting a bad deal without trying to negotiate that doesn’t sit well with me. You can frame it free of machismo by just calling it having more patients. It’s the same plan, I care exactly 0% how manly it appears.

If you’re ok with taking a bad deal and losing….to each their own. I disagree. The original disagreement was if the deal was bad or not, but I think we both agree that it is a losing deal value wise. 80% is your words, not mine, and I don’t think taking 80% is a good result. And before we get to semantics, yes I know 80% is fake number. But it’s pretty clear that MIA isn’t overpaying and also isn’t giving even value for Mitchell. That’s what 80% is representing for me, I don’t want to get into an argument about a made up number.

Winning deals is better than losing them, that’s for sure. But it’s not really you against the other team. Both teams can win or lose a trade. I’m not motivated to get one up on the other team….I’m motivated to get more than 80% on by far the most prized asset the franchise has.

And I think we’ll get that this summer. I feel pretty strongly that Don will be moved, and even if he doesn’t, I feel confident that whenever the trade happens I’ll be happy that we didn’t take what Miami has to offer right now.

It’s not a great package for Mitchell, and the fear of getting a worse package, making incorrect adjacent moves, or the desire to tank immediately to say we should take it anyways. Getting a better deal is more important to me, and I don’t actually think it should be the huge challenge we are making it out to me. I agree with the belief that the market for Mitchell is/will become more robust than it appears right now w/MIA being the only suitor and MIA also being limited in what they can offer.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don’t associate a middle finger with machismo, but whatever, it’s completely irrelevant because obviously it’s not what’s driving my opinion. It’s accepting a bad deal without trying to negotiate that doesn’t sit well with me. You can frame it free of machismo by just calling it having more patients. It’s the same plan, I care exactly 0% how manly it appears.

If you’re ok with taking a bad deal and losing….to each their own. I disagree. The original disagreement was if the deal was bad or not, but I think we both agree that it is a losing deal value wise. 80% is your words, not mine, and I don’t think taking 80% is a good result. And before we get to semantics, yes I know 80% is fake number. But it’s pretty clear that MIA isn’t overpaying and also isn’t giving even value for Mitchell. That’s what 80% is representing for me, I don’t want to get into an argument about a made up number.

Winning deals is better than losing them, that’s for sure. But it’s not really you against the other team. Both teams can win or lose a trade. I’m not motivated to get one up on the other team….I’m motivated to get more than 80% on by far the most prized asset the franchise has.

And I think we’ll get that this summer. I feel pretty strongly that Don will be moved, and even if he doesn’t, I feel confident that whenever the trade happens I’ll be happy that we didn’t take what Miami has to offer right now.

It’s not a great package for Mitchell, and the fear of getting a worse package, making incorrect adjacent moves, or the desire to tank immediately to say we should take it anyways. Getting a better deal is more important to me, and I don’t actually think it should be the huge challenge we are making it out to me. I agree with the belief that the market for Mitchell is/will become more robust than it appears right now w/MIA being the only suitor and MIA also being limited in what they can offer.

You don’t think it’s macho to have **** you in negotiating setting? Okay.

I think we are negotiating hard but sometimes hard negotiations will back fire if you lose sight of the total prize… we don’t know what deals Danny has passed up by seeking even value. I’m not actively seeking out uneven deals but I’m also not gonna win one battle while losing the war.

Again… the clips… they gave up a lot for PG… probably uneven value… what if Frank had the balls to say “nah we ain’t doing that… **** off” and now they have no PG or Kawhi because he didn’t want to lose a deal. Lakers on AD too…

And lol at Presti not being a mastermind. Dude ain’t Hinkie… not some demolition man. He built the team with 3 mvps on it… 2 were not the obvious picks at the time,.. he landed Ibaka with a late first… he made one terrible trade… but why? Did he come in and say we need to move Harden? Nah he had his owners panicked at paying the tax and was told to move him.

He got PG because of assets he picked up dumping a fading ibaka… he got him to re-sign… then sold him for a mega haul.

He’s managed assets well… he had one pretty bad eff up. If the lacobs were writing checks for him it never happens.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I've been on vacation with spotty internet connection, so I apologize if this has all been discussed to death.

- "Right Now" from the tweet in the OP, is basically saying that Donovan will ask out at some point, and a reminder that he's in control here
- FWIW I don't mind players having some power to put pressure on an organization to put winning pieces around them. I also think it can be mutually beneficial when there is open communication and a player and organization can both benefit from the player leaving.
- As far as the trade Donovan now vs trade Donovan later discussion, I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. On the upside of trading him later, I do think he likely has a bump in production if he's allowed to be even more ball dominant without Mike Conley. I also think teams get more desperate towards the trade deadline and will give you a better deal. I'm not sure that outweighs the risk of him getting injured or potentially losing value for most likely being less efficient and being part of a bad team.
- We're how many days in to the off season now and Ainge has yet to make a win now move. I think this points to where his head is at, but potentially we are just keeping our options open. I do think it's risky if we are keeping our options open and in the process have lost out on some of the better win now moves we could have made, and then are stuck somewhere in the middle with less than ideal win now pieces.
- Our best asset and the one we have the most control over is our own 2023 pick. In my opinion we should be actively trying to assure our best odds of a great 2023 pick. One of the reasons the Minnesota deal was so genius is that we didn't bring back any bad contracts or players that were going to make us a great team next year.

 

[KqWIN]

You don’t think it’s macho to have **** you in negotiating setting? Okay.

I think we are negotiating hard but sometimes hard negotiations will back fire if you lose sight of the total prize… we don’t know what deals Danny has passed up by seeking even value. I’m not actively seeking out uneven deals but I’m also not gonna win one battle while losing the war.

Again… the clips… they gave up a lot for PG… probably uneven value… what if Frank had the balls to say “nah we ain’t doing that… **** off” and now they have no PG or Kawhi because he didn’t want to lose a deal. Lakers on AD too…

And lol at Presti not being a mastermind. Dude ain’t Hinkie… not some demolition man. He built the team with 3 mvps on it… 2 were not the obvious picks at the time,.. he landed Ibaka with a late first… he made one terrible trade… but why? Did he come in and say we need to move Harden? Nah he had his owners panicked at paying the tax and was told to move him.

He got PG because of assets he picked up dumping a fading ibaka… he got him to re-sign… then sold him for a mega haul.

He’s managed assets well… he had one pretty bad eff up. If the lacobs were writing checks for him it never happens.

Presti would have made zero of these moves you praise him for if he was just like….”you know what, we’ll just take 80% instead”. We’re not the Clips in this situation. We’re the team with the star player…and if you’ve read anything I’ve said, you’d know this is central to my rationale. The reason why it’s a bad deal and you don’t settle is because teams will always want to have a star player. That is the power position, not having bad contracts and bad picks to trade. You don’t have to worry about teams not wanting Donovan Mitchell.

This started as a conversation talking about how it’s a bad package, now it’s turned into whether or not you should take a bad package. If you want to take the bad package and are happy with it….to each their own. I prefer to not take bad deals and I don’t think we will.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Presti would have made zero of these moves you praise him for if he was just like….”you know what, we’ll just take 80% instead”. We’re not the Clips in this situation. We’re the team with the star player…and if you’ve read anything I’ve said, you’d know this is central to my rationale. The reason why it’s a bad deal and you don’t settle is because teams will always want to have a star player. That is the power position, not having bad contracts and bad picks to trade. You don’t have to worry about teams not wanting Donovan Mitchell.

This started as a conversation talking about how it’s a bad package, now it’s turned into whether or not you should take a bad package. If you want to take the bad package and are happy with it….to each their own. I prefer to not take bad deals and I don’t think we will.

It’s not “bad”. There is a deal zone… if an offer comes in that is in the deal zone and nothing beats it, then it makes no god damn sense to wait it out for a year and keep the franchise in limbo to get to the high end of the deal zone. If the offers are garbage then by all means… wait it out.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

With the new lottery rules, I think it's quite foolish to trade a 25 year old 3 time all star and a bunch of quality NBA players just to lose on purpose to take a massive gamble that we end up in the top 3 or 4.

not that big of a gamble if the jazz are bad enough. and there is plenty of talent even outside that top 4 in the event they don't get there. but in order to be great, you have to take risks. it's part of the deal.

 

[LoPo]

not that big of a gamble if the jazz are bad enough. and there is plenty of talent even outside that top 4 in the event they don't get there. but in order to be great, you have to take risks. it's part of the deal.

So we dump Donovan Mitchell to get a pick outside the top 4 and that's a win?

Jeez the Donovan disrespect on this forum is unreal.

It's a safer risk to build around Don than it is to build around uncertain picks.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[KqWIN]

It’s not “bad”. There is a deal zone… if an offer comes in that is in the deal zone and nothing beats it, then it makes no god damn sense to wait it out for a year and keep the franchise in limbo to get to the high end of the deal zone. If the offers are garbage then by all means… wait it out.

I’m not advocating to wait it out for funzies or to get some kind of mythical haul….never have. You ask for that of course, but that’s not the only deal you take. I’m saying wait it out because that package stinks and I have a hard time believing a different team wouldn’t beat it.

Like I said, you tell the Knicks you’re taking that MIA deal tomorrow and they would be sure to beat it. It’s a bad offer that’s as bad as it is because MIA is limited in what they could offer. It’s especially bad if the Heat are unable to get OKC to play ball.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I’m not advocating to wait it out for funzies or to get some kind of mythical haul….never have. You ask for that of course, but that’s not the only deal you take. I’m saying wait it out because that package stinks and I have a hard time believing a different team wouldn’t beat it.

Like I said, you tell the Knicks you’re taking that MIA deal tomorrow and they would be sure to beat it. It’s a bad offer that’s as bad as it is because MIA is limited in what they could offer. It’s especially bad if the Heat are unable to get OKC to play ball.

Please outline what you think New York offers that beats the Miami offer once they think we take it.

Also lol on OKC… of course they will play ball… it’s great for them… like saying this deal could get hung up cuz they couldn’t arrange flights.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I honestly think it’s making the simple mistake of overvaluing your **** cuz it’s yours and discounting other guys **** cuz it’s theirs.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Barrett/Rose works salary wise for Donovan. We are saving 4.9M in that deal as well. How many picks with them is enough for Donovan? I don’t think they give us their 23/25/27/29 1sts and pick swaps in 24/26/28. I just don’t see that happening.

 

[KqWIN]

I honestly think it’s making the simple mistake of overvaluing your **** cuz it’s yours and discounting other guys **** cuz it’s theirs.

I find it to be the opposite. I think we’re so excited and desperate to tank, we don’t realize the value star players have. We also took it for granted because we’ve had them for so long. That’s exactly what happened with Gobert. We overvalue what we don’t have (picks) and undervalue what we had and took for granted (stars that win basketball games). If Jazz fans were happy about the season we just had, yeah maybe we overvalue what we have. But when we have a season as frustrating as we just had we are so quick, probably too quick to want to burn everything down.

As far as outlining the trade from the Knicks. It’s simple. Same picks, Fournier, Quickley and Toppin. That is a better offer. The picks are way better, the salary match aspect is better, and I like Quickley+Toppin more than Herro. That’s a better trade on all three fronts.

I know the Knicks haven’t come up as much in rumors…but when it comes down to it, do you really believe they will have less desire than the Heat? Mitchell is their guy. I still believe they value Mitchell more than any team in the league. Whatever the Heat offer, the Knicks can beat it, they unquestionably can. They have way more in the treasure chest to offer than what I mentioned. They have the means and the motivation. I think they offer a better deal, whatever that is.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I find it to be the opposite. I think we’re so excited and desperate to tank, we don’t realize the value star players have. We also took it for granted because we’ve had them for so long. That’s exactly what happened with Gobert. We overvalue what we don’t have (picks) and undervalue what we had and took for granted (stars that win basketball games). If Jazz fans were happy about the season we just had, yeah maybe we overvalue what we have. But when we have a season as frustrating as we just had we are so quick, probably too quick to want to burn everything down.

As far as outlining the trade from the Knicks. It’s simple. Same picks, Fournier, Quickley and Toppin. That is a better offer. The picks are way better, the salary match aspect is better, and I like Quickley+Toppin more than Herro. That’s a better trade on all three fronts.

I know the Knicks haven’t come up as much in rumors…but when it comes down to it, do you really believe they will have less desire than the Heat? Mitchell is their guy. I still believe they value Mitchell more than any team in the league. Whatever the Heat offer, the Knicks can beat it, they unquestionably can. They have way more in the treasure chest to offer than what I mentioned. They have the means and the motivation. I think they offer a better deal, whatever that is.

Quickley + Toppin is not better than Herro and if you take Fournier what’s the difference on him vs Robinson. You literally just proposed a worse package.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

So we dump Donovan Mitchell to get a pick outside the top 4 and that's a win?

Jeez the Donovan disrespect on this forum is unreal.

It's a safer risk to build around Don than it is to build around uncertain picks.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

jazz are going nowhere fast with just donovan - they can be the next portland (and lillard was better than donovan). good luck building around a small guard in the nba - steph is a unicorn so don't even go there. it's a fool's errand. i guess the jazz could be a perpetually .500 team and that would make some people happy.