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Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

stitches said:
IMO if Donovan asks for a trade and specifies NYK as prefered destination we will file tampering chargers with the league against NYK. That has to be part of the considerations for all 3 parties to this potential deal.
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Blackmail it is.

Ainge. "All I have to do is send this text and the league will take multiple picks from you. First Brunson and then Spida? Tisk tisk. Lets make it a cool 8 first round picks now. 7 for Donovan plus 1 for me keeping the tampering hounds at bay. The extra pick is lost either way, but you can save some face for the low price of Grimes, Toppen, RJ, and just that 1 extra pick.
 
Coach Ellis said:
My point was simply that you have to scout well, but getting a top 3 pick means every single one of those players was available. I didn’t include #1 and #2 picks. Just 3+. Jazz have to be a bottom 4 team to get those odds, but that’s what it takes to get a pick like that.

It’s not as simple as hoping for a 14% chance at the #1 pick - while that would be nice - you have to get a top 3 pick (usually) for the franchise changing players.
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Agreed but at the same time soooooo much is coaching, being able to develop that player (not just bench them and give them the school of hard knocks) and being truly objective to your organization’s own big board and not allowing outside influence to determine who is drafted.

With great coaching, you can develop players who in other situations may have completely fizzled out or at least been a shell of what they became.

Best players from certain drafts
2005 draft-Chris Paul at 4
2006 draft- Lowry at 24, Aldridge at 2, Roy at 6
2007-Durant at 2, Marc Gasol at 48
2008-Russ at 4
2009-Curry at 7, Harden at 3
2010-Paul George at 10, Hayward at 9, Wall at 1
2011-Kawhi at 15, Klay at 9, Kyrie at 1

More often than not, in this snapshot, the best player wasn’t top 3…keep going and it holds true. Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, Rudy and so were all drafted outside of that window.

I’m not of the mind that having a top 3 pick isn’t far better than not. That would be stupid. But the elite talent is there is clearly there after. It’s just scouting, fit, and an absolute commitment from coaching, organization and player to get a player to develop into that.
 
Keefe said:
Agreed but at the same time soooooo much is coaching, being able to develop that player (not just bench them and give them the school of hard knocks) and being truly objective to your organization’s own big board and not allowing outside influence to determine who is drafted.

With great coaching, you can develop players who in other situations may have completely fizzled out or at least been a shell of what they became.

Best players from certain drafts
2005 draft-Chris Paul at 4
2006 draft- Lowry at 24, Aldridge at 2, Roy at 6
2007-Durant at 2, Marc Gasol at 48
2008-Russ at 4
2009-Curry at 7, Harden at 3
2010-Paul George at 10, Hayward at 9, Wall at 1
2011-Kawhi at 15, Klay at 9, Kyrie at 1

More often than not, in this snapshot, the best player wasn’t top 3…keep going and it holds true. Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, Rudy and so were all drafted outside of that window.

I’m not of the mind that having a top 3 pick isn’t far better than not. That would be stupid. But the elite talent is there is clearly there after. It’s just scouting, fit, and an absolute commitment from coaching, organization and player to get a player to develop into that.
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I think a big part of this is hype. We get a Wembanyama hyped to holly hell, all while he is shooting 38% from the field and 26% from 3, or whatever it is, and is small and skinny despite his height, but he can dribble the ball and can shoot a pull-up 3, but he does all this against inferior competition, so he looks like a freak of nature, and so he gets hyped all to holy hell, all while the more solid players with more solid skill-sets and NBA bodies don't get the hype. So the hype wins out and gets drafted. This explains Exum completely. The exceptions are the true freaks like LBJ, the cannot miss prospects, like Duncan. But they are once a generation if even that. Even Durant wasn't hyped like that. We cannot give in to hype. I hope Ainge is better than that, and by his drafting record I think he is.

But it is still way better to have one of the top 3 picks than not. Imagine trading back to get a Giannis-type player while collecting assets at the same time. That is the real dream in this scenario.
 
Here are my thoughts — if we make the other moves to gut the roster of vets, we’ve essentially shown our hand to the Knicks and the rest of the NBA that we’re tanking. Right now we can at least tell the Knicks with a straight face that if they don’t want to meet our price for Don, we’ll keep Don, retool, and stay competitive.

Right now we can say to the Knicks — “you don’t want to send 6 firsts? Okay, we’ll retool around Don next year, be in the playoffs/play-in one year, and see what teams have more assets to send for Don next year.”

Holding off on other moves is really just to maximize the Knicks’ FOMO on Don. Another possibility is that gutting the roster of vets increases the chance Don makes a trade demand. This is all that makes sense to me.
 
Ineptimusprime said:
Here are my thoughts — if we make the other moves to gut the roster of vets, we’ve essentially shown our hand to the Knicks and the rest of the NBA that we’re tanking. Right now we can at least tell the Knicks with a straight face that if they don’t want to meet our price for Don, we’ll keep Don, retool, and stay competitive.

Right now we can say to the Knicks — “you don’t want to send 6 firsts? Okay, we’ll retool around Don next year, be in the playoffs/play-in one year, and see what teams have more assets to send for Don next year.”

Holding off on other moves is really just to maximize the Knicks’ FOMO on Don. Another possibility is that gutting the roster of vets increases the chance Don makes a trade demand. This is all that makes sense to me.
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But if we lose some first round picks to gain some other first round picks what is the point? I mean the Knicks picks are the only ones that matter. We can manufacture the other picks with what we already have on the roster. I'm really over the Knicks "young players" too. I want picks and swaps from the Knicks, not the random trash they have acquired. Otherwise we are talking to Charlotte, who have just turned more desperate.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I think a big part of this is hype. We get a Wembanyama hyped to holly hell, all while he is shooting 38% from the field and 26% from 3, or whatever it is, and is small and skinny despite his height, but he can dribble the ball and can shoot a pull-up 3, but he does all this against inferior competition, so he looks like a freak of nature, and so he gets hyped all to holy hell, all while the more solid players with more solid skill-sets and NBA bodies don't get the hype. So the hype wins out and gets drafted. This explains Exum completely. The exceptions are the true freaks like LBJ, the cannot miss prospects, like Duncan. But they are once a generation if even that. Even Durant wasn't hyped like that. We cannot give in to hype. I hope Ainge is better than that, and by his drafting record I think he is.

But it is still way better to have one of the top 3 picks than not. Imagine trading back to get a Giannis-type player while collecting assets at the same time. That is the real dream in this scenario.
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Few gripes here. Wemby isn't playing against inferior opponents than his peers. Giannis played in a worse league in second division of the Greek League and averaged less than 10 points. Europe is much rougher physically and the space is more limited so the skinny guys really struggle against grown men.

Exum never played against real competition, he was an academy player and the film was much more scarce for him.

He is a freak of nature.
 
Hekate said:
Few gripes here. Wemby isn't playing against inferior opponents than his peers. Giannis played in a worse league in second division of the Greek League and averaged less than 10 points. Europe is much rougher physically and the space is more limited so the skinny guys really struggle against grown men.

Exum never played against real competition, he was an academy player and the film was much more scarce for him.

He is a freak of nature.
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Yeah not sure. I remain skeptical. The film I have seen is obviously cherry-picked and belies the stats. We'll see I guess. If we end up drafting him I will pray and cheer for him to be a combo of Jokic and Gobert. But I won't hold my breath for it.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Leverage for the Don trade, ultimately.

The idea that they actually go into the season trotting out a Don-led team of mostly guards is a Weekend at Bernie’s level of absurdity.
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Perfect.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Yeah not sure. I remain skeptical. The film I have seen is obviously cherry-picked and belies the stats. We'll see I guess. If we end up drafting him I will pray and cheer for him to be a combo of Jokic and Gobert. But I won't hold my breath for it.
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Nothing wrong with being skeptical and the comps are outlandish. He isn't a mix of Gobert and Jokic. Wemby doesn't have the vision and passing of Jokic and he is going to be more of a movement passer, that is he will need to attract defenders with his dribbles and gravity and Jokic is the best passer in the league. He also doesn't have the defensive instincts and positioning of Gobert yet. He is just something different.

That said, even if he is inconsistent, the fact that he can show them against professional players is very promising. I feel that emergence of Doncic skewed how people look at Euro prospects. Most Euro players struggle to make the team at age 17 because winning takes priority. Jokic got drafted while he was averaging less than 10 minutes for a Serbian team, hardly a top 5 league in Europe.
 
I don't know enough about the French kid and his body type does scare me. I am more interested in the many SG/SF athletic players in this draft. Those two positions are crucial to have with a championship type team. Guys who can shoot 3pts and play defense. I am hoping the Jazz can get two starters and a solid role player in the 2023 draft. Hopefully one will be a star in this league.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I think a big part of this is hype. We get a Wembanyama hyped to holly hell, all while he is shooting 38% from the field and 26% from 3, or whatever it is, and is small and skinny despite his height, but he can dribble the ball and can shoot a pull-up 3, but he does all this against inferior competition, so he looks like a freak of nature, and so he gets hyped all to holy hell, all while the more solid players with more solid skill-sets and NBA bodies don't get the hype. So the hype wins out and gets drafted. This explains Exum completely. The exceptions are the true freaks like LBJ, the cannot miss prospects, like Duncan. But they are once a generation if even that. Even Durant wasn't hyped like that. We cannot give in to hype. I hope Ainge is better than that, and by his drafting record I think he is.

But it is still way better to have one of the top 3 picks than not. Imagine trading back to get a Giannis-type player while collecting assets at the same time. That is the real dream in this scenario.
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Completely agree. To me the best comp for Wemby is Dirk. Dirk obviously, we know now, had the mental make-up to work hard and was tough enough that he could withstand the physicality of the NBA. For all we know, Wemby won’t be able to take that physical brand of play (and it’s not as if it’s even that physical anymore) or the speed of play, and frankly, it’s not as if he has the best pure shot like Dirk had, a Dirk who shot for 41.8% from 3 on almost 5 attempts per game overseas.

I think @Saint Cy of JFC said it and I agree. His best attribute is probably on defense. Offensively, he is really damn raw.
 
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Keefe said:
Completely agree. To me the best comp for Wemby is Dirk. Dirk obviously, we know now, had the mental make-up to work hard and was tough enough that he could withstand the physicality of the NBA. For all we know, Wemby won’t be able to take that physical brand of play (and it’s not as if it’s even that physical anymore) or the speed of play, and frankly, it’s not as if he has the best pure shot like Dirk had, a Dirk who shot for 41.8% from 3 on almost 5 attempts per game.

I think @Saint Cy of JFC said it and I agree. His best attribute is probably on defense. Offensively, he is really damn raw.
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Dirk? What in the hell are you smoking?
 
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