carolinajazz
Well-Known Member
....when this clyde stands outside an NBA arena with a cardboard sign that says: "Will play for food!" then some team will pick him up!
Surprised Fess hasn't been picked up
- Thread starter Beantown
- Start date
....when this clyde stands outside an NBA arena with a cardboard sign that says: "Will play for food!" then some team will pick him up!
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
So if I follow you correctly you're saying one of two things:
A) Fes could have been another Ostertag if used properly.
B) You love to hear yourself talk.
thanks for adding to my point
Your point actually makes my argument stronger. If you say that Fes has on average played against inferior backup centers, and also more second team players, then his plus/minus is exaggerated because he is playing against inferior offenses as well.
I think his defensive prowess is overstated by this statistic.
Your point actually makes my argument stronger. If you say that Fes has on average played against inferior backup centers, and also more second team players, then his plus/minus is exaggerated because he is playing against inferior offenses as well.
I think his defensive prowess is overstated by this statistic.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Too bad you don't follow correctly.
A) I never said "Fes could've been another Ostertag"; I said that 'Tag got the minimally required minutes much more quickly, and that development doesn't necessarily happen with playing time in bits and pieces averaging <5 MPG--suggesting either court time in very tiny segments or long lags between more substantial blocks of time, neither of which bodes for player growth and consistency.
Fes has better physical tools than Osterblob; probably a bit stronger and faster. But because he was not given enough development minutes, his upside is not clear, but the downside would be close to 'blob. Fesenko appeared to have more motivation to play than 'Tag did; unfortunately, neither one apparently had enough motivation to practice very well.
But the real principle remains: for most players, it takes more than <5 MPG and 1000 minutes overall for them to develop. Fes had opportunity to help his case by doing more off court, but even without it, his on-court performance warranted more playing time than he got. Thus, I hope that he gets signed on a team that does explore his potential, however limited or expansive it might be.
After Dallas's woeful performance against Miami, the Mavs might be a team that wants to sign him--if for no other reason than to give LeFake James and Chrissy Bosh a hard time. Brendan Haywood had 0 points, 2 rebounds, and 4 fouls in 13+ minutes, and the other backup bigs didn't do much better.
B) If I loved to hear myself talk, my posts would be much longer lol.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Your flaw lies in citing a list of most of the top centers in the league as reasoning that his +/- would plummet, because such +/- decline would happen with most centers in the league. But if you compare his +/- performance to other backup centers, it is easy to surmise that Fesenko's +/- was among the best, and that coaches who actually analyze things instead of leading out of their azzes (i.e., Sloan) would consider experimenting with that potential a little bit more--such as maybe playing a high-performing backup against starters a bit more or at least giving him more burn against opposing backups, especially since combinations including *Williams-Bell-Miles-Millsap-Fesenko and *Watson-Miles-Kirilenko-Evans-Fesenko were effective in the short time that they were (probably unintentionally) tested.
The mistake that Sloan made (Fes wasn't the first victim, btw, despite the dearth of legit backups and starting C's over time) is that he did neither. The rational coaching approach would have been to give Fes minutes when the bigs in the game were being ineffective or when the outcome of the game was less in question. Didn't happen often enough. Boozakur was effective only part of the time, and this pair often struggled with taller or faster frontcourts (Yao doesn't count because he was slow and because his PF was short), making the effort to develop a solid backup that much more imminent. Here's hoping that Corbin has more sense in that regard--although it's more of a no-brainer to give players such as Kanter minimal playing time on a regular basis, given that he is being groomed as a starter, is a 1st-rounder, and probably is already a bit more advanced. Perhaps a bigger test will be how he allocates minutes to Burks--although it's highly likely that Bell and/or Miles will implode regularly enough to make allocating Alec minutes a highly obvious option.
Ostertag had enough motivation that he could play 20-30 minutes without sucking wind. Fesenko did not. Had Fesenko been able to, he likely would have played more minutes.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Your claim might be valid as an argument for him not playing 20+ minutes (although a fringe benefit of regular minutes is better conditioning, as has been afforded to post-injury Boozer, Okur, and others). But it does not explain why he didn't play 10 minutes on a regular basis.
Sloan, too, had irrelevant claims--only worse, stating here that a player should be able to play 48 minutes.
https://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/50807080-87/sloan-jazz-fesenko-dallas.html.csp
(Sure, Jer; but that doesn't explain why you don't play them 10 to 15 minutes, maybe in 5- to 7-minute spurts, which is something that their conditioning can allow, especially when they are making an impact. It's foolish to bench a player who is contributing just because they can't run a 10K. On that standard, Okur would've never played.)
And Sloan said the same type of deflection about Ostertag--10 years into 'Tags career--but never sent him to the doghouse for so long as he did with Fesenko.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/635158345/Ostertag-comes-up-big-for-Jazz-in-early-going.html
And you speak as if Okur was in shape, or that even Boozer didn't rest on defense.
All of this would've been much simpler if Fesenko--like Ostertag--had been more self-motivated.
But even at Fesenko's level of conditioning and skill, he should've played more; see +/-, see after his rookie year when he did lose weight/got in better shape and still didn't play, see the playoffs vs. the Lakers, see the time when Boozer was out and Millsap/Koufos/Fes filled in. But Sloan's bias toward veterans and irrational obsession of off-court effort relative to on-court performance caused Fes to be played less than optimally for his development and the performance of the team. Kirilenko, Okur, and Bell are other examples of players who have been out of shape, and their minutes were far less restricted. It was all feeble excuses on Sloan's part in favor of--puzzlingly--playing mostly two big men who were visibly poor defenders and often obviated their offensive impact with matador D.
Last edited:
Probably the most accurate thing you have ever said. Eventually, someone will realize they have an extreme lack of big men and will pick up Fess just because he is big.
Actually, it does. If a player is not dedicated enough to get themsevles in decent condition, their on-court performance will be unpredictable. Coaches like to know what they are going to see when they put a player in.
Okur and Boozer could also play a good-sized number of minutes without reaching exhaustion.
davidbenoit
Well-Known Member
He won't be playing much behind both Biedrins and Kwame Brown.
Oh, the cruel irony.
Mr. McGibblets
Well-Known Member
I think kicky just wet himself.
No, no, he will play. Mark Jackson will recognize the greatness of Fesenko and his amazing +/- and give him 20+ mpg. Jackson is not Sloan and he will go ahead and put Fes on the floor.
How much would you like to wager? In honor of Fess I say a carton of cigs and the biggest jug of Vodka you can find. By the way just kidding. I have been a "supporter" of Fes,
I think he could somehow still get some minutes even with the great Biedrins and Kwame on the team.
davidbenoit
Well-Known Member
They're paying Brown 7 mil, there is going to be pressure to play the dude. And Biedrins has actually looked pretty good if you've watched any Warriors games.