Building around Williams was a mistake, time to move on
- Thread starter Lord of Turnovers
- Start date
Jean-Luc
Member
A ridiculous notion.
I see the "historical evidence" for your point, but ... the Jazz need their superstar. It's ridiculous and absurd that you would, as a Jazz fan, make this thread... because we all know that Deron is the best thing to happen to Utah since sliced bread.
Help needs to be brought to him, building around a dominant player like Deron is a smart thing... he just needs another playmaker. IMO Deron is by far the best thing Utah basketball has going for it.
I see the "historical evidence" for your point, but ... the Jazz need their superstar. It's ridiculous and absurd that you would, as a Jazz fan, make this thread... because we all know that Deron is the best thing to happen to Utah since sliced bread.
Help needs to be brought to him, building around a dominant player like Deron is a smart thing... he just needs another playmaker. IMO Deron is by far the best thing Utah basketball has going for it.
No one player is good enough to win it all. Think of even the greatest players. Cousy needed Russell. Chamberlain needed West. Robertson needed Jabbar. Magic needed Worthy. Bird needed McHale. Isaiah needed the Bad Boys. MJ needed Pippen. Shaq needed Kobe. Robinson needed Duncan. And Kobe needed Gasol. It's stupid to say that we can't build around one great player. No one player can do it all in the NBA. Not even the greatest players of all time
green
Well-Known Member
Your point if fine, but like I mentioned, the Pistions had SIX top ten players. So, even with Deron and Hayward, they are still FOUR short. That is a huge talent discrepancy. Heck, LA had Four top ten players and Kobe. Utah has never had the talent that SA, HOU, CHI, LA, BOS has had. The point is, they don't need to get rid of Deron, they need to get better role players and another star. They need more talent.
David Stern
Well-Known Member
Fixed.
Hopper
Banned
Yeah, they need more talent, but everything's so fragile. People here sometimes act like the Jazz have been the worst team in the league, just because they can't beat the Lakers in the playoffs. But AK is a former all-star. Deron is an all-star, and a two-time all-pro, even. Boozer is/was a former all-star (and all-pro, I think). Memo is a former all-star. Off the bench, Brewer, Miles, Harpring, Millsap, Korver, Matthews and others have been more than simply adequate--many times our second team has actually got us back into a game we were losin big. In the regular season, at least, the Jazz have been able to slap BIGTIME ***-whuppins down on Boston, San Antonio, Cleveland, Denver, Orlando, and even the Lakers over the last few years. Yet, year in, year out, they seem to have major injuries, mental lapses (AK) and various other minor defects, as well as some major defensive flaws. The Jazz have been a good team, and not really that far from bein a championship contender. But bein good aint enough--ya also gotta be lucky.
Losin Boozer could be a blessin in disguise. Millsap/AK is fine at the 4 spot. Among other things, I think the team relied too much on Boozer on the offensive end, and it certainly suffered from his lack of defense on the other. If the Jazz can just adequately address their problems at center, it could make a "world" of difference, I figure. With Boozer gone, they are in a much better position to do that.
The big market teams have always had advantage as far as pooling together the most talent, but what has happened in the past few years really concerns me. It started with the Lakers swinging that scandalous deal to get Pau Gasol. Next, we had Boston getting Garnett and Allen to join Pierce. (Nothing shady about the deal, but concerning nonetheless). And, now we have 3 players essentially colluding to create a superteam.
So while the Jazz have been consistently good, they simply can't match up with these superteams. To be honest, there's no way the Jazz could do much to get more competitive against the Lakers.
I'm not certain how this sort of thing could be handled in the CBA. Hopefully, the league has at least some interest in keeping the NBA game competitive. If this sort of thing is allowed to continue, it could cause severe damage to the game and cost small market teams to be unable to build competitive teams. I hope all this LeBron stuff over the last few weeks is a wakeup call. Sure, we love the players, but I think most of us love the game more. The players can't be bigger than the game or this is what happens.
So while the Jazz have been consistently good, they simply can't match up with these superteams. To be honest, there's no way the Jazz could do much to get more competitive against the Lakers.
I'm not certain how this sort of thing could be handled in the CBA. Hopefully, the league has at least some interest in keeping the NBA game competitive. If this sort of thing is allowed to continue, it could cause severe damage to the game and cost small market teams to be unable to build competitive teams. I hope all this LeBron stuff over the last few weeks is a wakeup call. Sure, we love the players, but I think most of us love the game more. The players can't be bigger than the game or this is what happens.
Agreed. I think LeBron made a big mistake that will plague the rest of his career. Sometimes when you get what you want, it doesn't always turn out as you expected. Look at the Mailman. He bolted for a year in LA, and probably would've gotten his ring, but then he was injured for the Finals -- first time in his career an injury prevented him from playing in the playoffs -- and it likely cost the Lakers the title. The P-R mistake for LeBron was huge. He may make money in the short run, but a lot of his fans are going to turn on him; he really hurt his image and "his brand" as his business advisors call it.
Shaggy
Well-Known Member
Dude! Elder Hayward. oh my gosh!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, no duh, but he is a rookie and we weren't able to build around him over the past few years.
Shaggy
Well-Known Member
That's not what you said though. You said who else are we suppose to build around. Not who else could we have built around. See the difference!
-1 for confusing me!
That's not what you said though. You said who else are we suppose to build around. Not who else could we have built around. See the difference!
-1 for confusing me!
+1 for winning this confrontation. I feel stupid now.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
You missed his point. Those guys basically WERE the PG for those teams. They did most of the offensive responsibilities of the PG and created for their team. Your way to caught up is a specific position. A team needs talent accross the board to win and most of those examples of PGs you used did not have a ton of talent around them. You dismissed Magic as not a PG but he was, what about Isiah? Billups was an elite PG as well.
Hopper
Banned
The guy's just a troll, Greg, and not really worth respondin to, but I've seen legit posters make this same argument, more or less, which was advanced by whazhizname, the Sports Guy, a while back. Often forgotten in these types of "history lessons" is Iverson's MVP year back in 2001, when he led the league in scorin and steals and virtually single-handedly took the 76's to the NBA finals with no "superstar" help.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
In case you havent noticed the Jazz have been drafting in the 20s for decades now. Lebrons, Kobe's, Duncans tend not to last that long....teams also tend not to trade these players and lock them up for multiple years ....hard to believe I know!
So unless you propose the Jazz tank for these high picks - YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT. The year the Jazz were fortunate to have 3 your logic would be to draft Martell Webster, Charlie V, or Ike Diogu over Deron- nice call. Please interview for a GM job at once.
And you missed his point as well. Elite Wings can do everything, handle the ball, score and do it all. That's the point. And they were NOT the PGs for those teams no matter how much you claim they were. They didnt start at PG. Yes, they could handle the ball if needed, but still they are the SG or SF and they had a PG to often bring up the ball or atleast take a load of pressure off of them in terms of ball handling. But they can also handle the ball come crunch time.
Disdvantage with being a PG is that you have to bring the ball up the court every time, face tons of pressure and also generate offense for others, besides scoring for yourself. Magic Johnson was unique. You cannot compare Deron with Magic. Deron isnt 6-9. Isaih maye, thats about it. Billups was on a team that could go to any one of 4 guys on any given night for scoring. Rasheed or Rip or Tayshawn. Plus Billups was'nt treated like the MAX player there.He was just one of the many offensive options they had on a equal opportunity team. He was'nt like the clear standout offense guy there.
Also, We are talking about MAX PGs here.
Who was the last MAX PG to lead his team to the championship in the last 15 years?
------
Havind said all of the above as a counter-argument I still think Deron can set some sort of precedent here by being one of the first MAX franchise-level PGs in a long time to win a championship, but he needs to get a STUD at PF or C. If that is'nt possible, it has to be a 2004 Pistons-like team, with atleast 3 guys next to Deron in the starting five, capable of scoring 20 on anygiven night and also capable of defending. That Pistons team had atleast 4 good-to-great individual defenders in the starting five, which is remarkable. And except for en Wallace they could all put the ball in the Hoop. Now that was some genius GM work by Dumars.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
See my post above, unless you start naming the elite wings or centers the Jazz could have got (by FA or draft) you are simply wasting everyones time.