Who will be the starting point guard on opening night?

[Handlogten's Heros]

You think this is hindsight?

Yes and no... the hindsight portion is the deal Brown took. Essentially a 1+1 with a team option at $20M a year. I assume he would have considered us for that type of deal as we could start him as a 2 or 3 and give him some PG duties. If you knew he would do that... then maybe you pass on the Collins deal.

 

[infection]

And I view a lot of our moves recently somewhat similar to my recent history with refinancing my house. I’ve refinanced three times since my initial purpose. Each of those refinances, individually, was absolutely the right thing to do and saved me a significant amount of money in the long-run compared to what it was before. But in an ideal world, I would have known the doors opening and the eventual lower-than-inflation rate I have today and I would have refinanced just the last time, and not the two previous to that. That would’ve saved several tens of thousands in fees. I’m still way better off than I was originally, and each step was significantly better than the previous, but in the hypothetical of doing it once, that would be drastically better than any scenario.

We’re doing plenty of things good. I just wonder if it’s an opportunity cost of something more good or even great.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

so I guess I’m just kinda hoping we get some positive with Collins or he can be used as a chip for something somewhere, but if we could still choose not doing that move, I wouldn’t do that move.

Basically this portion of the post is where I am. I realize this may not have been the ideal PLAN A offseason the FO had in mind... but I'd probably rather go find one guy on a one year overpay as a rotation player than do the Collins deal. I would still do the JC extension as its a great value that is easy to market, sell, and will provide obvious value along the way for a known commodity. But if there was an undo button for the Collins trade I would push it.

 

[infection]

Yes and no... the hindsight portion is the deal Brown took. Essentially a 1+1 with a team option at $20M a year. I assume he would have considered us for that type of deal as we could start him as a 2 or 3 and give him some PG duties. If you knew he would do that... then maybe you pass on the Collins deal.

I think we can pass on the Collins deal and have that be the right move (or right no move, to quote the late-great KOC) irrespective of whatever other deals happened.

 

[HermanG]

The roster being non-sensical is evidence that another feel-it-out-then-maybe-tank-down-the-stretch strategy might be in play.

It looks to me like Ainge was just opportunistic with Collins and is being patient until opportunism actually yields a roster-construction that makes sense.

Why do you consider the roster non-sensical? Just curious, since I dont see it that way.

Its just missing a key piece, which I'm sure they are sniffing around for.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think we can pass on the Collins deal and have that be the right move (or right no move, to quote the late-great KOC) irrespective of whatever other deals happened.

True... I guess the thing I don't like is the contract and player status will dictate a bit of where/when/how much we play him. Say we passed on that deal and had to throw a 1 +1 to Derrick Jones Jr. to get to the salary floor (still a FA) at like 10M with a team option of 10M. You can start KO over DJJ or start him if its better for the team. Is Collins a big midseason trade asset? More than a semi-cheap expiring salary?

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

If the Jazz are interested in Tyler Herro he averaged 4.1 assists per game last year. That would not be bad in the 2 guard spot.

 

[framer]

No, the Jazz need good young players on mid to larger sized contracts that are ultimately expendable. You can't roll with draft picks as your only assets. Bruce Brown on a 1+ 1 isn't that. In order to be on the market to trade for stars you need players like Collins and Sexton on solid to great contracts. Starting next year we got 3 guys like that counting Clarkson.

 

[fishonjazz]

Locke's show yesterday was all about the possibility of Clarkson as the point guard, which would give us a Clarkson/Ochai/Lauri/Collins/Kessler starting 5. I really hate this idea...just not nearly enough playmaking/facilitating. Clarkson would be the only one capable of getting Lauri/Collins/Kessler the ball because Ochai doesn't really have any playmaking skills, and I don't think JC's shoot first pass second mentality will ever change enough to make that lineup work. I would much rather go with a backcourt of Dunn/JC, Sexton/JC or even THT/JC and bring Ochai off the bench.

Also, i dont want to take away JC's best part of his game. Scoring. If we decide he should be the main facilitator then he might become hesitant to score. No more flamethrower. Despite not liking when he is a chucker sometimes, we still need him to that.

 

[homeytennis]

I just read on hoops rumors that Dunn, Luka and Yurtseven all have non-guaranteed deals for this season. Say a possibility comes up for a trade for a bigger fish, those are nice cards to have in the drawer,

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Why do you consider the roster non-sensical? Just curious, since I dont see it that way.

Its just missing a key piece, which I'm sure they are sniffing around for.

We have some redundancy and some deficiencies... adding Collins and retaining JC (while also drafting George and Hendricks) doesn't really address the deficiencies and Collins kinda adds creates some new redundancies.

George and Hendricks are rookies so who knows what they will become. I just think in some ways the Collins deal is going to be a lateral move if he replaces KO's minutes. Its a big commitment to take on for something that seemingly doesn't address a need and creates some roster issues.

Now maybe what we don't know if that he can be recycled in a Siakham deal (not the biggest fan but it makes more sense) or a Derozan deal... or some other deal. Maybe the other move comes down and we get that amazing playmaker next to JC and the Collins/Lauri/Kessler frontcourt... just very few players that fit the bill and none that I see as currently available.

Non-sensical may be strong... puzzling, unfinished, might be more appropriate... but the roster doesn't make a ton of sense as is.

 

[fishonjazz]

I recognize that I don’t have any power over what happens and over the past few years, especially with the draft, I’ve tried to be more blasé, so I guess I’m just kinda hoping we get some positive with Collins or he can be used as a chip for something somewhere, but if we could still choose not doing that move, I wouldn’t do that move.

I too will go on record as not liking the Collins trade (i think already posted that at the time of the trade but wanted to reiterate.)

 

[HermanG]

True... I guess the thing I don't like is the contract and player status will dictate a bit of where/when/how much we play him. Say we passed on that deal and had to throw a 1 +1 to Derrick Jones Jr. to get to the salary floor (still a FA) at like 10M with a team option of 10M. You can start KO over DJJ or start him if its better for the team. Is Collins a big midseason trade asset? More than a semi-cheap expiring salary?

They circled around him a year despite the initial asking price being reportedly high. Im sure part of that was opportunistic but I have to think that Collins spefically has something or a combination of things they were after.

My guess would be his skillset fitting well to what Hardy wants from 4 + high charracter / blue-collar mentality / locker room leadership.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No, the Jazz need good young players on mid to larger sized contracts that are ultimately expendable. You can't roll with draft picks as your only assets. Bruce Brown on a 1+ 1 isn't that. In order to be on the market to trade for stars you need players like Collins and Sexton on solid to great contracts. Starting next year we got 3 guys like that counting Clarkson.

Umm the bolded portion is a pretty significant contradiction imo. Brown on a 20M 1+1 is a better asset than Collins. He's a guy that fits anywhere and the financial commitment is more flexible. If Brown tears his ACL in game 1 you still have an expiring contract which is an asset. If Collins does it you have a noose. If Brown blows up and is awesome you have a good 2 year contributor... If Collins does that you have a deal that is longer by a year... so that's the case where its a "better" asset. As far as what both players have shown in their careers Brown is much more positionally fluid.

 

[Jingled]

Also, i dont want to take away JC's best part of his game. Scoring. If we decide he should be the main facilitator then he might become hesitant to score. No more flamethrower. Despite not liking when he is a chucker sometimes, we still need him to that.

I felt like last year, especially in the early part of the season, he found a good balance of when to look for his own shot and when to look for his teammates. He wasn't hesitant but he also wasn't as much of a chucker. I hope he can keep that up this season.

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

i will go on record and say that I am on the wait-and-see when it comes to Collins. It could still work out. I like Hardy and think he will make it

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

One weird set of messaging I don't get from the front office or at least that the local media push... Ochai needs to be a starter... why? Sexton is a bench guy... why? I don't care too much who starts... but if I was ranking how the minutes allocation priority should be based on talent and where they are in their career...

The #1 Ochai Hater strikes again.

But the reasons you would want to pencil in Ochai starting over Sexton/THT/Keyonte is that he profiles as an ideal 3&D type wing and you need someone out there who can matchup with star 2-guards/wings. If you're rolling with some combo of Dunn/Clarkson/Sexton, how are you matching up with the playoff teams in the West? Seems pretty difficult.

You also need the floor spacing Ochai provides. He has a quick trigger off the catch and can be a real C&S weapon. THT/Dunn are negative floor spacers and Sexton can shoot it when open, but its' really not his game. If we are going to lean in to these athletic bigs, we are going to need spacing.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I felt like last year, especially in the early part of the season, he found a good balance of when to look for his own shot and when to look for his teammates. He wasn't hesitant but he also wasn't as much of a chucker. I hope he can keep that up this season.

The last game of Clarkson's season he had 12 assist. I think right now he's probably the best option if you are trying to put out the best possible lineup.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

They circled around him a year despite the initial asking price being reportedly high. Im sure part of that was opportunistic but I have to think that Collins spefically has something or a combination of things they were after.

My guess would be his skillset fitting well to what Hardy wants from 4 + high charracter / blue-collar mentality / locker room leadership.

I think it is more just opportunity and they will figure out fit later... but you can only do that so many times before it becomes an issue. He's a good player... I just would have tried to find a different good player that fits better. I fear they are doing the same thing with Tyler Herro as well as the rumors have been pretty consistent there.

Again... don't think its catastrophic... think we could end up getting out of his deal later if it isn't working... just don't see it as an awesome asset play.

 

[HermanG]

We have some redundancy and some deficiencies... adding Collins and retaining JC (while also drafting George and Hendricks) doesn't really address the deficiencies and Collins kinda adds creates some new redundancies.

George and Hendricks are rookies so who knows what they will become. I just think in some ways the Collins deal is going to be a lateral move if he replaces KO's minutes. Its a big commitment to take on for something that seemingly doesn't address a need and creates some roster issues.

Now maybe what we don't know if that he can be recycled in a Siakham deal (not the biggest fan but it makes more sense) or a Derozan deal... or some other deal. Maybe the other move comes down and we get that amazing playmaker next to JC and the Collins/Lauri/Kessler frontcourt... just very few players that fit the bill and none that I see as currently available.

Non-sensical may be strong... puzzling, unfinished, might be more appropriate... but the roster doesn't make a ton of sense as is.

Yeah I agree about unfinished. Its obviously not championship or bust this year, but I'm pretty sure they are looking to make progress and improve both as a unit and record-wise.