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I'm super biased against Trump. I know that about myself, it's not a secret to people I talk about this kind of stuff with. I pretty much used this trial to test my perception about the reality of what Trump is. I'll use the next one and the next one the same way.

If this had been a full acquittal I would have told myself that I need to question certain things and sources more and listen to some others more closely. That's how I navigate my life. Constant course corrections, seldom hard turns. If that jury said "not guilty" to every single charge I'd admit to myself that I got this one wrong and now I need to know how and why I got it wrong. I did that a lot after Trump was elected. I remember reassuring some people that "we would never do that." I was wrong, we did that. I've tried to understand why we did that. But I'm biased so I tend towards certain answers.

12 jurors spent weeks listening to testimony and being presented with evidence. There was room to say okay yeah guilty on this but we'll say not guilty on that, largely because Trump signed some of the checks and he didn't sign others. That could have been an easy middle ground, especially if the jury was split. That's what I would have put money on happening.

12 people agreed on each of 34 different counts.

I was wrong. I was so biased I auto-corrected the other way, basically giving a handicap to my fears. There has been so little satisfaction in regard to holding Trump accountable that I assumed the injustice would continue.

doesn't him being found guilty on ALL the counts with relatively so little deliberation time raise your eyebrows ?? Despite the fact the key witness to the case is both a convicted perjurer who at the same time as giving his testimony regarding the transactions admitted that he simultaneously misrepresented and stole from Trump via said transactions ?? lol

It's really a pity that the Jan 6 trial wasn't brought on much earlier
 
Trump would basically lose to anyone with a pulse, unfortunately as much as i think Biden has done a decent job all things considered he's looking more like a thunderbird every day. Reminds me of the last days of Reagan
 
doesn't him being found guilty on ALL the counts with relatively so little deliberation time raise your eyebrows ?? Despite the fact the key witness to the case is both a convicted perjurer who at the same time as giving his testimony regarding the transactions admitted that he simultaneously misrepresented and stole from Trump via said transactions ?? lol

It's really a pity that the Jan 6 trial wasn't brought on much earlier
What would I take away from that to raise my eyebrows? What are you suggesting happened in the jury room?

Anyway, if you're interested. Explains how these charges were elevated to felonies. Hint: they didn't invent any of this for Trump. These laws have been on the books far a long long time.

 
oh good lord If you can actually read i've posted that he should be in jail for January 6 and in serious trouble for the classified documents case. This particular one is the only one that i've pointed out i think is ridiculous and yet i "always defend trump" Dude you hate him so much (which is fair enough) that you have just lost any ability to think rationally. If you lose the proper due process just to stop someone who probably did this thing and a bunch of others you are diminishing your country. Do you really think all trials are the same and equally as fair and balanced ?? Here's what the legal expert wrote : If you'd care to take the time to actually dwell on what he has had to say which also many other commentators on both sides of the aisle have

"By any reasonable measure, the jury of Manhattanites who yesterday found former president Donald Trump guilty on all 34 charges did its job, and did it well.

They took on a civic duty from which many others fled; during jury selection, when Judge Juan Merchan allowed potential jurors who did not want to serve essentially to walk out the door, over half the assembled pool headed straight for the exits. The jurors sat through six weeks of testimony, they were by all accounts attentive throughout the trial, and they asked precise, insightful questions of the judge during deliberations. Nobody’s truly in position to say if the jury got it right or wrong; they saw the evidence and we didn’t — most of us, that is, including those like me who followed every line of testimony as it happened; there’s no substitute for seeing it play out live. Reasonable minds could have come out either way, and this jury found that the prosecution carried its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury’s work, and their verdict, deserve respect.

But that doesn’t mean that every structural infirmity around the Manhattan district attorney’s case has evaporated. Both of these things can be true at once: The jury did its job, and this case was an ill-conceived, unjustified mess. Sure, victory is the great deodorant, but a guilty verdict doesn’t make it all pure and right. Plenty of prosecutors have won plenty of convictions in cases that shouldn’t have been brought in the first place. “But they won” is no defense to a strained, convoluted reach unless the goal is to “win,” now, by any means necessary and worry about the credibility of the case and the fallout later.

The following are all undeniable facts.

The judge donated money — a tiny amount, $35, but in plain violation of a rule prohibiting New York judges from making political donations of any kind — to a pro-Biden, anti-Trump political operation, including funds that the judge earmarked for “resisting the Republican Party and Donald Trump’s radical right-wing legacy.” Would folks have been just fine with the judge staying on the case if he had donated a couple bucks to “Re-elect Donald Trump, MAGA forever!”? Absolutely not.

District Attorney Alvin Bragg ran for office in an overwhelmingly Democratic county by touting his Trump-hunting prowess. He bizarrely (and falsely) boasted on the campaign trail, “It is a fact that I have sued Trump over 100 times.” (Disclosure: Both Bragg and Trump’s lead counsel, Todd Blanche, are friends and former colleagues of mine at the Southern District of New York.)

Most importantly, the DA’s charges against Trump push the outer boundaries of the law and due process. That’s not on the jury. That’s on the prosecutors who chose to bring the case and the judge who let it play out as it did.

The district attorney’s press office and its flaks often proclaim that falsification of business records charges are “commonplace” and, indeed, the office’s “bread and butter.” That’s true only if you draw definitional lines so broad as to render them meaningless. Of course the DA charges falsification quite frequently; virtually any fraud case involves some sort of fake documentation.

But when you impose meaningful search parameters, the truth emerges: The charges against Trump are obscure, and nearly entirely unprecedented. In fact, no state prosecutor — in New York, or Wyoming, or anywhere — has ever charged federal election laws as a direct or predicate state crime, against anyone, for anything. None. Ever. Even putting aside the specifics of election law, the Manhattan DA itself almost never brings any case in which falsification of business records is the only charge.

Standing alone, falsification charges would have been mere misdemeanors under New York law, which posed two problems for the DA. First, nobody cares about a misdemeanor, and it would be laughable to bring the first-ever charge against a former president for a trifling offense that falls within the same technical criminal classification as shoplifting a Snapple and a bag of Cheetos from a bodega. Second, the statute of limitations on a misdemeanor — two years — likely has long expired on Trump’s conduct, which dates to 2016 and 2017.

So, to inflate the charges up to the lowest-level felony (Class E, on a scale of Class A through E) — and to electroshock them back to life within the longer felony statute of limitations — the DA alleged that the falsification of business records was committed “with intent to commit another crime.” Here, according to prosecutors, the “another crime” is a New York State election-law violation, which in turn incorporates three separate “unlawful means”: federal campaign crimes, tax crimes, and falsification of still more documents. Inexcusably, the DA refused to specify what those unlawful means actually were — and the judge declined to force them to pony up — until right before closing arguments. So much for the constitutional obligation to provide notice to the defendant of the accusations against him in advance of trial. (This, folks, is what indictments are for.)

In these key respects, the charges against Trump aren’t just unusual. They’re bespoke, seemingly crafted individually for the former president and nobody else.

The Manhattan DA’s employees reportedly have called this the “Zombie Case” because of various legal infirmities, including its bizarre charging mechanism. But it’s better characterized as the Frankenstein Case, cobbled together with ill-fitting parts into an ugly, awkward, but more-or-less functioning contraption that just might ultimately turn on its creator.

Trump will appeal, as is his right, and he’s certain to contest the inventive charges constructed by the DA. I won’t go so far as to say an appeals court is likely to overturn a conviction — New York law is broad and hazy enough to (potentially) allow such machinations — but he’s going to have a decent shot at a reversal.

“No man is above the law.” It’s become cliché, but it’s an important point, and it’s worth pausing to reflect on the importance of this core principle. But it’s also meaningless pablum if we unquestioningly tolerate (or worse, celebrate) deviations from ordinary process and principle to get there. The jury’s word is indeed sacrosanct, as I learned long ago. But it can’t fix everything that preceded it. Here, prosecutors got their man, for now at least — but they also contorted the law in an unprecedented manner in their quest to snare their prey"


this is not the rambling of "Trump cologne" or MAGA blah blah It beggars belief that intelligent people either don't know this or just are willing to overlook it just to "get Trump" There's plenty to legitimately get him on without making a mockery of the system. If you can't acknowledge these details you're just not a serious person. Or you're just one of Thrillers "partisan hacks"

He committed crimes. He was tried. He was found guilty on all counts.

My favorite part of your post was "Would folks have been just fine with the judge staying on the case if he had donated a couple bucks to “Re-elect Donald Trump, MAGA forever!”? Absolutely not."

This is hilarious because you say that the classified documents case is a big deal. The judge in that case indefinitely postponed the start of the trial. You know, the same judge that Donald Trump appointed. I have yet to see you say that this is an issue. You should be shouting from the rooftops that she should recuse herself from the case. But alas, crickets. Again, there is a pattern here.

Also:

Not only is the speaker or the house a lawyer but...........

"I think that the justices on the court – I know many of them personally– I think they’re deeply concerned about that, as we are."
In theory, the case eventually could be taken up by the Supreme Court, which has a 6-3 conservative majority, due to three justices which were nominated to the bench by the former president.

So nothing wrong with maga Mike trying to get the supreme Court, whom he has personal relationships with and whom the convicted felon appointed 3 of them to, to go ahead and overturn this conviction for their friend who is house speaker and for their other friend who gave them their jobs and happens to be the defendant.

Yep, totally on the up and up. No conflict of interest there.

I'm sure this makes you very upset. So upset that you never ever mention it. More crickets from you.

It would be so easy for you to quote this post and simply say "both of those things are huge conflicts of interest". You dont though. More of that pattern I have been talking about


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doesn't him being found guilty on ALL the counts

Yep. It totally raised my eyebrows. Like holy ****, Donald is obviously guilty as ****!

For you it raised your eyebrows like, yep he is obviously innocent if all the jurors believe he was guilty. It's really weird.

I would be more likely to think he was Innocent if the jurors had mixed decisions.

It's so weird. All the jurors agree that Donald was guilty. Rather than that fact making you believe he is guilty you seem to be more willing to accept his guilt if some of the jurors said he was innocent. That is pretty strange.

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It's almost like douchebag thinks that what the jury should have done is once they deliberated for 2 days and reviewed a bunch of the evidence and discussed the verdict and saw that trump was guilty of all charges...... At that point they should have been like "hey guys, if we all say he is guilty then that will raise eyebrows and make people think he is actually innocent so let's just have a few of us say not guilty. That way people will think he is actually guilty or something"

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Yep. It totally raised my eyebrows. Like holy ****, Donald is obviously guilty as ****!

For you it raised your eyebrows like, yep he is obviously innocent if all the jurors believe he was guilty. It's really weird.

I would be more likely to think he was Innocent if the jurors had mixed decisions.

It's so weird. All the jurors agree that Donald was guilty. Rather than that fact making you believe he is guilty you seem to be more willing to accept his guilt if some of the jurors said he was innocent. That is pretty strange.

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Trump should be in prison for what happened on January 6, nearly 4 years later he's not seen the inside of a court room or been charged for his two bit insurrection. He should have been charged with treason and hung at the end of a rope.
 
Trump should be in prison for what happened on January 6, nearly 4 years later he's not seen the inside of a court room or been charged for his two bit insurrection. He should have been charged with treason and hung at the end of a rope.
Is crazy how immediately after everyone was shocked but within a few days Trump supporters and the spineless Republican politicians were on board with the "they were just tourists" *********.

People here now downplay it like it was nothing. It wasn't successful so no harm no foul.
 
Is crazy how immediately after everyone was shocked but within a few days Trump supporters and the spineless Republican politicians were on board with the "they were just tourists" *********.

People here now downplay it like it was nothing. It wasn't successful so no harm no foul.

I've been thinking about a comparative example from history of other similar democracies the closest I can think of is the dismissal of the Whitlam government in 1975. It isn't even that comparative because Whitlam was actually elected. A series of events triggered a constitutional crisis, the elected Labor government of Gough Whitlam was dismissed by the unelected queens representative in what amounted to little more than a coup. (Its a long story at its heart is the British and American ownership of the mineral wealth of this country but I will spare all ) The night of the coup thousands of Australians took to the streets to protest, the trade union movement was prepared to call a general strike until the elected government was reinstated. The elected parliament was dissolved and a conservative government put in place until an election could be held 4 and a half weeks later. The deposed Prime Minister took to the nations airways that night to plead for calm and asked Australians to return home, confident that the government would be returned at the ballot box. Comparing the actions of Trump to the actions of a real leader and statesman is stark. (I've been trying to find a full copy of his speech, I heard it at Uni but haven't been able to find it, its a brilliant piece of oratory delivered from the steps of Parliament House.)
 
Trump should be in prison for what happened on January 6, nearly 4 years later he's not seen the inside of a court room or been charged for his two bit insurrection. He should have been charged with treason and hung at the end of a rope.

this 100 % This issue and the current dodgy paperwork one are chalk and cheese.
 
He committed crimes. He was tried. He was found guilty on all counts.

My favorite part of your post was "Would folks have been just fine with the judge staying on the case if he had donated a couple bucks to “Re-elect Donald Trump, MAGA forever!”? Absolutely not."

This is hilarious because you say that the classified documents case is a big deal. The judge in that case indefinitely postponed the start of the trial. You know, the same judge that Donald Trump appointed. I have yet to see you say that this is an issue. You should be shouting from the rooftops that she should recuse herself from the case. But alas, crickets. Again, there is a pattern here.

Also:

Not only is the speaker or the house a lawyer but...........

"I think that the justices on the court – I know many of them personally– I think they’re deeply concerned about that, as we are."
In theory, the case eventually could be taken up by the Supreme Court, which has a 6-3 conservative majority, due to three justices which were nominated to the bench by the former president.

So nothing wrong with maga Mike trying to get the supreme Court, whom he has personal relationships with and whom the convicted felon appointed 3 of them to, to go ahead and overturn this conviction for their friend who is house speaker and for their other friend who gave them their jobs and happens to be the defendant.

Yep, totally on the up and up. No conflict of interest there.

I'm sure this makes you very upset. So upset that you never ever mention it. More crickets from you.

It would be so easy for you to quote this post and simply say "both of those things are huge conflicts of interest". You dont though. More of that pattern I have been talking about


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dude you're the one who's got his panties in a knot halfway up his clacker. I know sweet FA about the supreme court stuff so i haven't commented but yeah for sure that's a very uncomfortable conflict of interest if Trump expects them to reverse a decision for him when he's appointed some of them.

You are so irrational and tbh pretty hysterical when it comes to Trump which is fine, however i do object to you trying to label me this or that or tell me what i actually think when i point out something that is a curiosity or that i think is wrong. Like Rubashov said i think Trump should have been incarcerated for the horrific Jan 6 events waaaayy before this. And the classified documents again is a very very serious offence. This other stuff pffftttt is petty compared to the seriousness of that. So the judge in that case was appointed by Trump .. ??? so what ?? How do you think that's an issue compared to a judge who's specifically donated to and is ideologically on record as supporting the accused criminal's political opponent ? That you can't even say that is a serious conflict of interest shows that you have totally lost all ability for reasoned thinking when it comes to the orange turkey.

If you can't debate things rationally without resorting to personal insults and put downs i'm disappointed and surprised. I would've thought you're better than that. I won't reply to anything else in these political threads to you, i hope the next 6-12 months in the US isn't as unstable and awful as i fear it might be. I'll see you in the actual Jazz threads
 
I've been thinking about a comparative example from history of other similar democracies the closest I can think of is the dismissal of the Whitlam government in 1975. It isn't even that comparative because Whitlam was actually elected. A series of events triggered a constitutional crisis, the elected Labor government of Gough Whitlam was dismissed by the unelected queens representative in what amounted to little more than a coup. (Its a long story at its heart is the British and American ownership of the mineral wealth of this country but I will spare all ) The night of the coup thousands of Australians took to the streets to protest, the trade union movement was prepared to call a general strike until the elected government was reinstated. The elected parliament was dissolved and a conservative government put in place until an election could be held 4 and a half weeks later. The deposed Prime Minister took to the nations airways that night to plead for calm and asked Australians to return home, confident that the government would be returned at the ballot box. Comparing the actions of Trump to the actions of a real leader and statesman is stark. (I've been trying to find a full copy of his speech, I heard it at Uni but haven't been able to find it, its a brilliant piece of oratory delivered from the steps of Parliament House.)

they don't make em like they made Gough W anymore
 
What would I take away from that to raise my eyebrows? What are you suggesting happened in the jury room?

Anyway, if you're interested. Explains how these charges were elevated to felonies. Hint: they didn't invent any of this for Trump. These laws have been on the books far a long long time.



- this is a pretty comical presentation stylistically. George Costanza doesn't exactly provide much to the arguement. The attempt to define "influence the election" seems bizarre in the way that the linking from one type of crime to another undefined crime was made, and it is the first time this exact mechanism has been attempted. Anyway i'll stick to our bet when it gets to whatever appeal process is finalized ??

I still reckon he'll get a jail sentence, which would be fabulous entertainment
 
dude you're the one who's got his panties in a knot halfway up his clacker. I know sweet FA about the supreme court stuff so i haven't commented but yeah for sure that's a very uncomfortable conflict of interest if Trump expects them to reverse a decision for him when he's appointed some of them.

You are so irrational and tbh pretty hysterical when it comes to Trump which is fine, however i do object to you trying to label me this or that or tell me what i actually think when i point out something that is a curiosity or that i think is wrong. Like Rubashov said i think Trump should have been incarcerated for the horrific Jan 6 events waaaayy before this. And the classified documents again is a very very serious offence. This other stuff pffftttt is petty compared to the seriousness of that. So the judge in that case was appointed by Trump .. ??? so what ?? How do you think that's an issue compared to a judge who's specifically donated to and is ideologically on record as supporting the accused criminal's political opponent ? That you can't even say that is a serious conflict of interest shows that you have totally lost all ability for reasoned thinking when it comes to the orange turkey.

If you can't debate things rationally without resorting to personal insults and put downs i'm disappointed and surprised. I would've thought you're better than that. I won't reply to anything else in these political threads to you, i hope the next 6-12 months in the US isn't as unstable and awful as i fear it might be. I'll see you in the actual Jazz threads
I think the biggest difference here is that the judge that trump appointed who is presiding over the classified documents case is literally deciding his guilt or innocence currently. She is not going to allow trump to go to trial. She isn't going to let a jury see any evidence. She won't let witnesses be called. She won't let evidence be presented. She has decided that trump will remain innocent of any and all charges by not allowing trump to go to trial.



The judge presiding over the falsified hush money payments presided over the case. The lawyers litigated the case. Witnesses were called. Evidence was provided. The jury decided trumps guilt.

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- this is a pretty comical presentation stylistically. George Costanza doesn't exactly provide much to the arguement. The attempt to define "influence the election" seems bizarre in the way that the linking from one type of crime to another undefined crime was made, and it is the first time this exact mechanism has been attempted. Anyway i'll stick to our bet when it gets to whatever appeal process is finalized ??

I still reckon he'll get a jail sentence, which would be fabulous entertainment
This mechanism has existed for a long long time and yet no other misdemeanor was ever elevated to a felony if the misdemeanor was committed with the intent to commit other crimes? I don't believe that for a second.

For people reading along, the Trump fraud was elevated to a felony because not only was it fraud, but the fraud was was done in order to facilitate other crimes. This is NOT uncommon. They proved that the fraud was done in order to facilitate other crimes and that it was all done intentionally.

If I steal a candy bar that is a crime but a fairly minor misdemeanor. If I walk out of the store with my stolen candy bar while making a finger gun in my jacket pocket pointed towards the cashier I have now committed armed robbery. See how smaller crimes can be elevated? It is not something they invented to get Trump.
 
This mechanism has existed for a long long time and yet no other misdemeanor was ever elevated to a felony if the misdemeanor was committed with the intent to commit other crimes? I don't believe that for a second.

For people reading along, the Trump fraud was elevated to a felony because not only was it fraud, but the fraud was was done in order to facilitate other crimes. This is NOT uncommon. They proved that the fraud was done in order to facilitate other crimes and that it was all done intentionally.

If I steal a candy bar that is a crime but a fairly minor misdemeanor. If I walk out of the store with my stolen candy bar while making a finger gun in my jacket pocket pointed towards the cashier I have now committed armed robbery. See how smaller crimes can be elevated? It is not something they invented to get Trump.
All this defending for what? Trump? All of this spin for a spoiled, narcissistic, effeminate, racist man who couldn’t give a **** about his supporters? No one here defending him has benefited in any way from his presidency. Yet, they’ll defend him like no other politician or religious figure in their lifetimes.

You don’t see anyone dressing up as Hunter Biden. No one is calling the charges against Senator Menendez to be politically motivated. No one defending Trump would be defending Biden, Clinton, or Obama. Yet, they’ll spin, lie, and defend a serial liar, criminal, and sewage bag because… of what? What they perceive he represents? Because of the white grievance he feeds them?


View: https://x.com/theatlantic/status/1798320152557031851?s=46
 
All this defending for what? Trump? All of this spin for a spoiled, narcissistic, effeminate, racist man who couldn’t give a **** about his supporters? No one here defending him has benefited in any way from his presidency. Yet, they’ll defend him like no other politician or religious figure in their lifetimes.

You don’t see anyone dressing up as Hunter Biden. No one is calling the charges against Senator Menendez to be politically motivated. No one defending Trump would be defending Biden, Clinton, or Obama. Yet, they’ll spin, lie, and defend a serial liar, criminal, and sewage bag because… of what? What they perceive he represents? Because of the white grievance he feeds them?


View: https://x.com/theatlantic/status/1798320152557031851?s=46

But aren't you afraid that if Trump is held accountable for his crimes then any politician could be held accountable for their crimes?

I say with an entirely straight face.
 
But aren't you afraid that if Trump is held accountable for his crimes then any politician could be held accountable for their crimes?

I say with an entirely straight face.

lol you don't think every single sitting member of congress or the senate would have something you could prosecute if you dug deep enough for long enough ??

I mean insider trading there is a joke. Half your politicians should be in jail for insider trading if everything was investigated and prosecuted no ??
 
lol you don't think every single sitting member of congress or the senate would have something you could prosecute if you dug deep enough for long enough ??

I mean insider trading there is a joke. Half your politicians should be in jail for insider trading if everything was investigated and prosecuted no ??
If that's true, prosecute them all! ALL. OF. THEM.
 
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