Which Will Be Easier: Competing for a Title

[fishonjazz]

I promise I see the merits of what you are proposing, and in fact have been a proponent of it. I just don't think it's the only way, and comes with a lot of risks as well. Specifically we'll have the same risks, if not more risks trying to be good for the 2026 season as we have for the 2025 season. I don't think we can go in to the 2025 season with the idea that we've just drafted this stud and we are going to automatically be able to put a good team around him. First of all, he might not actually be a stud and likely needs a couple of seasons to be good even if he is. Secondly, there is a chance the 2026 draft is even better than 2025 and we have lower protections on the pick that year, so we could end up giving OKC an even better pick than trying to be good this year.

As far as the fan base goes they are going to be upset if we aren't winning either way.

You dont have to flip a switch. You move on to step 2. Start building the winning culture. Change the way you deal with free agency, trades, rotations/minutes. Step 2 isn't flipping a switch and going for a championship. It's moving on from the tank which was tearing things down, to now building things back up.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[fishonjazz]

Also got to consider people are deciding to make this Jazz-centric and have decided we will draft a top 20 guy in 25 or 26, but what if Portland drafts that player? What if Detroit drafts that player? Doesnt that also make that far out date harder? We have an idea about who the teams/players are in the next 3 years and none of them are unbeatable.

True. Great players will always be entering and exiting the NBA.

Another good reason to not worry about something you can't control and just try to build the best team you can.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[fishonjazz]

They had a month long stretch where they were very good then the FO sabotaged the team with the KO/Simone trade which killed morale.

If they start off hot, there won't be any way to sabotage the team unless they trade Sexton.

They had the players to start off hot before. Then the front office sabotaged that. Now they don't have the players to start off hot anymore. Especially if the coach employs some load management stuff

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

They had the players to start off hot before. Then the front office sabotaged that. Now they don't have the players to start off hot anymore. Especially if the coach employs some load management stuff

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

They still have the players. And those players are older and better.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It's hard to compete when you don't have a top tier guy in his prime. So... whenever we get one is when competing will be easier. We don't have that guy right now and for teams like the Jazz the best way to get one of those is through the draft, which means the timeline for contention is probably further away in the future, rather than sooner.

This is how the decision should be made for us and any other franchise. If you view the landscape as exceptionally favorable and you have one of those guys then go for it… but you probably were already going to go for it. There are so many teams that have gone all in on the current window I don’t see this as something this as a can’t miss opportunity.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It's hard to compete when you don't have a top tier guy in his prime. So... whenever we get one is when competing will be easier. We don't have that guy right now and for teams like the Jazz the best way to get one of those is through the draft, which means the timeline for contention is probably further away in the future, rather than sooner.

Again, this is not the poll question.

People are purposefully doing the poll wrong for the sake of their bias towards tank or not tanking.


That's not the question.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I disagree. I think the goal is to get your young stud. If we do this season right then we get that guy next draft.
Mission accomplished. Step one complete. Move to step 2.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

You disagree we'll have just as much incentive next year? I'm not sure how it's going to be too much different than this year, could you please explain?

From what I can see we'll have even more young guys to develop and we'll have even more incentive to be bad and not give away our even less protected 2026 draft pick. We also won't really know what we have in our 2025 draft pick until he starts playing games.

Really the only way I can see our incentive to be good next year to be more than this year is if our 2023/2024 draft picks show they are ready (which likely means our 2025 draft pick isn't great).

 

[stitches]

Again, this is not the poll question.

People are purposefully doing the poll wrong for the sake of their bias towards tank or not tanking.


That's not the question.

The reality is... there will always be teams/players that will be challenging to go past. Be it Wemby or Jokic or Curry or Lebron or Jordan. There will always be a team... or a few teams rather that are really well set to compete in any given year. The new CBA has made it really hard for teams to construct dynasties since keeping the core of the teams over prolonged periods of time becomes really expensive and really punishing. So yeah... I personally wouldn't make decisions based on what is essentially very shaky predictive foresight - way too many moving pieces to know what will happen in the league in a year or two, let alone in 5-6 years. So yeah... IMO we should largely concern ourselves with what's the best way to build a contending team ourselves, rather than trying to chase a perceived window of opportunity based on what other teams and players are doing.

We should fix our own team and set it up for success. Then worry what we can do and how we can adjust to the strengths and weaknesses of the other strong teams of the day.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The reality is... there will always be teams/players that will be challenging to go past. Be it Wemby or Jokic or Curry or Lebron or Jordan. There will always be a team... or a few teams rather that are really well set to compete in any given year. The new CBA has made it really hard for teams to construct dynasties since keeping the core of the teams over prolonged periods of time becomes really expensive and really punishing. So yeah... I personally wouldn't make decisions based on what is essentially very shaky predictive foresight - way too many moving pieces to know what will happen in the league in a year or two, let alone in 5-6 years. So yeah... IMO we should largely concern ourselves with what's the best way to build a contending team ourselves, rather than trying to chase a perceived window of opportunity based on what other teams and players are doing.

We should fix our own team and set it up for success. Then worry what we can do and how we can adjust to the strengths and weaknesses of the other strong teams of the day.

And the landscape is currently flattening a bit in that there haven't been repeat champions in a while. Who's to say that is unique to this time period though... it may be the norm and things may get even flatter. A number of teams will be forced to melt a bit with the cap stuff coming down the road. It may get even flatter in a couple years. Plus the bill is going to come due for a lot of teams that yolo'd their picks... will they liquidate their stars creating buying opportunities?

If you got a guy... your window is now... if you don't got a guy... you should get one then decide. Get that dude however you want... tanking, FA, trade, drafting later or try to do all of the above.

 

[fishonjazz]

They still have the players. And those players are older and better.

I guess you forgot the sabotage trades already

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[fishonjazz]

This is how the decision should be made for us and any other franchise. If you view the landscape as exceptionally favorable and you have one of those guys then go for it… but you probably were already going to go for it. There are so many teams that have gone all in on the current window I don’t see this as something this as a can’t miss opportunity.

Ya I mean imagine you have Luka or SGA on your team but other teams have prime LeBron, prime wemby, prime Steph and prime Jordan on them.
So do you just say **** it, I'm trading Luka or SGA cause I can't compete with those other teams/guys? **** no, you try to improve your team and beat them.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[fishonjazz]

You disagree we'll have just as much incentive next year? I'm not sure how it's going to be too much different than this year, could you please explain?

I thought I already did but I will try again. The tanking step of the plan is to get the guy. That is the incentive. So we get the guy in 2025. Now the incentive is gone. That part is done.
Now we move to the next step. Building the team up.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The reality is... there will always be teams/players that will be challenging to go past. Be it Wemby or Jokic or Curry or Lebron or Jordan. There will always be a team... or a few teams rather that are really well set to compete in any given year. The new CBA has made it really hard for teams to construct dynasties since keeping the core of the teams over prolonged periods of time becomes really expensive and really punishing. So yeah... I personally wouldn't make decisions based on what is essentially very shaky predictive foresight - way too many moving pieces to know what will happen in the league in a year or two, let alone in 5-6 years. So yeah... IMO we should largely concern ourselves with what's the best way to build a contending team ourselves, rather than trying to chase a perceived window of opportunity based on what other teams and players are doing.

We should fix our own team and set it up for success. Then worry what we can do and how we can adjust to the strengths and weaknesses of the other strong teams of the day.

That isnt the thread/poll...

Just answer the intent of the thread. It isnt hard.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The fact that some posters are dodging it so hard tells me all I need to know.

 

[stitches]

And the landscape is currently flattening a bit in that there haven't been repeat champions in a while. Who's to say that is unique to this time period though... it may be the norm and things may get even flatter. A number of teams will be forced to melt a bit with the cap stuff coming down the road. It may get even flatter in a couple years. Plus the bill is going to come due for a lot of teams that yolo'd their picks... will they liquidate their stars creating buying opportunities?

Yeah, we have 6 different champions in the last 6 years with 9 different finals teams. To me it feels very futile to be planning for a specific team.

If you got a guy... your window is now... if you don't got a guy... you should get one then decide. Get that dude however you want... tanking, FA, trade, drafting later or try to do all of the above.

Yep. Get the guy... or two... in whatever way you think is best to do it and go for it.

 

[fishonjazz]

The fact that some posters are dodging it so hard tells me all I need to know.

I think we all agree. It's easier for a team that is ready to contend to win a chip now.
Your thread was a success! We agree with you!

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Yeah, we have 6 different champions in the last 6 years with 9 different finals teams. To me it feels very futile to be planning for a specific team.

No one is asking you to declare a plan of anything.

Just which set of years do you think will be easier to compete (generally speaking, not team specific) for a title?

The fact that you want to dodge the question just lets me know that the answer is conflicting within you and would possibly change your plan, so it scares you into not answering it and dodging it and making it something it isnt.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I thought I already did but I will try again. The tanking step of the plan is to get the guy. That is the incentive. So we get the guy in 2025. Now the incentive is gone. That part is done.
Now we move to the next step. Building the team up.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

That doesn't really make sense as incentive. How are we going to know we got the guy until he starts playing? Also, just because you have one guy does that remove incentive to go get another one?

Remember, the best pick we can control is #5. I LOVE the 2025 draft and think there will be good players at 5, but it's a strong statement to say the 5th best player is going to be such a good prospect that we decide to build around him.

 

[fishonjazz]

That doesn't really make sense as incentive. How are we going to know we got the guy until he starts playing? Also, just because you have one guy does that remove incentive to go get another one?

Remember, the best pick we can control is #5. I LOVE the 2025 draft and think there will be good players at 5, but it's a strong statement to say the 5th best player is going to be such a good prospect that we decide to build around him.

The answer to your first question is that you don't. But you didn't want to tank for infinity so you get that top 5 pick and move on.
The answer to your second question is that when teams have that guy they don't try to suck. They try to win. We tank right and get a top pick. We draft the dude we hope is The Guy. We build around him assuming he is The Guy. It might fail. So might everything.

It just seems dumb to me to spend 3 years tearing it all down in attempt to draft The Guy to simply give up on that plan (when we have our tankiest team yet in the strongest draft yet) and add Ingram and then just be a team that is good and has no chance at a title and who then either has to spend a ton to keep the middling team together or tear it down again and try to get The Guy again.

Might as well continue with the plan and hope it works.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[stitches]

No one is asking you to declare a plan of anything.

Just which set of years do you think will be easier to compete (generally speaking, not team specific) for a title?

The fact that you want to dodge the question just lets me know that the answer is conflicting within you and would possibly change your plan, so it scares you into not answering it and dodging it and making it something it isnt.

I'm not dodging anything. IMO in general it doesn't matter... I don't think any particular 3 year span is more likely to be easier. What I will say is... right now there is no team that strikes fear in me like the Bulls used to in the 90s or GSW used to in the late 2010s. So... I guess the question is - what's the likelihood we get one of those teams in the late 2020s? Maybe the chance is non-zero... but I still think the biggest question any team should answer first is the question about the quality of their own team rather than the competition.