American Soldier Murders Afghans

[Deleted member 848]

Your founder had a 6 year old bride...a kindergartner. Does that bother you even a little bit?

I refuse to respond to this.

Far be it for me to defend Islam. As far as I can tell they are one of the worst religions when it comes to tolerance.

Alright Nate, I gotta pack my bags and get on the train pretty quickly here, so I can't address this (currently) as well as I should, but Ill try and give a few points.


Islam, prior to the 1950s, was probably the most tolerant of religions. Islamic countries were the first ones world-wide that granted its citizens a freedom to express any faith they wished, as long as they paid a tax to the country's military for protection. It is for this reason that you can still find religious minorities throughout the Muslim world, such as the Catholic Khaldians of Iraq, and what not. Can the same be said about Spain, and its formerly high Muslim population?

I shall find some scriptural evidence, and links that support my currently bales claims either later today or tomorrow, but please try and consider doing some research before deciding on claims like that. Unfortunately for us, the last 40 years have been quite the dark stain in our religion, when it comes to leaders of countries/militant groups like Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the Taliban being used by the media as a complete representation of our faith. Our faith honestly preaches tolerance, I assure you. It is ultimately the biggest reason why i am so tolerant of all of the faiths that I come across here on Jazzfanz, FWIW.

 

[MK11]

The straw-man comes in because I never said we should war against children. I thought it possible the guy was retaliating against the village for killing his buddies or whatever. Or maybe he was sick of being jerked around, unsupported by his own commander in chief, and a target of everyone around him.

What precautions can you take against "childrenphobia" in this occupation/nation building/sitting around waiting to come home or whatever it is? It ain't even war. It is all a waste.

Sorry I have no respect for a religion whose founder had a 6 year old bride. Treats their women like chattel. Makes martyrs of their children. Kills gays, stones rape victims, etc. I'm sure there are kind Muslim people but the religion has too many "black marks" as Nate would say.

Your founder had a 6 year old bride...a kindergartner. Does that bother you even a little bit?

Pff, Millsapa, my dear friend, were you and me arguing about any religion? What's the point of suddennly attacking to Islam? Is this better than my so called "straw-man"nes?

It's also so sad that you're doing this in a way which shows that you're terribly uninformed/misinformed about the Islam.

Too bad, I don't have enough time to argue about this sudden new way of the argument.

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing. TRUE...........

I previously put the other verse were it states killing 1 person is like killing mankind. Notice it says 1 person and not 1 Muslim or believer. TRUE...........

Stoning is not mentioned ONE TIME in the entirety of the Qur'an. The same cannot be said for the Bible (there are three times were it is used and seen as acceptable punishment). TRUE...........

The Qur'an prescribes no punishment for gays or apostles... TRUE...........

People put all these accusations about Islam without any references to verses because they don't exist.

People criticize the Qur'an without knowing its the perfect religion.

Also about Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) first I hear 12 years old, then 9, now people are saying 6 years old?? You guys realize the first time he married he was 25 years old and he married a 40 year old women.

Far be it for me to defend Islam. As far as I can tell they are one of the worst religions when it comes to tolerance.

Nate505, I definitely wouldn't expect to hear such a prejudice from you.

First of all my friend, not that the muslims are really intolerant people but(it's a too easy generalization and unfair), it saddens me when I hear accusations about islam because of the muslims. To me, it really is the guilt of muslims actually to put islam into this position, because they themselves have no idea about what really islam about is, generally. So I really don't blame you.

But it's also the guilt of western world who make people think in a primitive way like easily believing islam and its billions of followers are bad and evil, or intolerant. It's sad our western friends have already defeated by islamophobia and can think and speak about islam and its people with prejudice, misinformation or even with being totally uninformed.

I can say with my experience of knowing all kind of people, there really is not any relation when it comes to angel-ness or evil-ness of the people with their religion or their etnicity, for the major part of the world.

Anyway I can only suggest to study well the any subject that we want to have an opinion about, with multiple sources and from everysides of the issue along with the most objective sources, rather than to be with closed mind and closed eyes to the actual world.

Maybe I can also suggest everyone who wonder about the actual tolerance of the islam, to read Rumi who is one of the most known thinkers of the islam world by the westerners.

 

[utahjazz107]

All Religions ultimately lead to the same ****....violence and war.

There is only one God, Gordon Hayward.

/thread

 

[PearlWatson]

Pff, Millsapa, my dear friend, were you and me arguing about any religion? What's the point of suddennly attacking to Islam? Is this better than my so called "straw-man"nes?

It's also so sad that you're doing this in a way which shows that you're terribly uninformed/misinformed about the Islam.

Too bad, I don't have enough time to argue about this sudden new way of the argument.

I don't know how Islam came up in connection to the Afghan war. It is crazy what pops up out of the blue around here.

 

[MK11]

All Religions ultimately lead to the same ****....violence and war.

There is only one God, Gordon Hayward.

/thread

I know you're just joking around my friend, but I'd like to respond still, because it's a common belief everywhere.

We can always ask a test question like this, "If there wasn't any religion in the world, there would be a better world?

This is just my answer : I don't think so! We, the humanity, would have found a way with the all other excuses, pretexts or covers to make a shi*y world as shi* as today's world!

So in my opinon, the problem is not actually/mostly about the religions, it's all about the people.

 

[Stoked]

I know you're just joking around my friend, but I'd like to respond still, because it's a common belief everywhere.

We can always ask a test question like this, "If there wasn't any religion in the world, there would be a better world?

This is just my answer : I don't think so! We, the humanity, would have found a way with the all other excuses, pretexts or covers to make a shi*y world as shi* as today's world!

So in my opinon, the problem is not actually/mostly about the religions, it's all about the people.

I agree that it is the people more then the reigion. If they didnt fight about religiont hey would fight about race, nationality, language, or a million other things. People have a clan mentality. To bad they cannot expand that to everyone being of the same "clan".

 

[TheDude]

Children are a threat to our soldiers. That's just a fact.

I enjoyed your "war against children" straw-man though. I knew someone would go there.



Two Middle East mothers are sitting in a cafe chatting over a plate of tabouli and a pint of goats milk.

The older of the mothers pulls a bag out of her purse and starts flipping through photos. And they start reminiscing.

This is my oldest son Mohammed. He would be 24 years old now.

Yes, I remember him as a baby says the other mother cheerfully.

He’s a martyr now though mum confides.

Oh, so sad dear says the other.

And this is my second son Kalid. He would be 21'

Oh, I remember him, says the other happily, he had such curly hair when he was born.

Hes a martyr too says mum quietly.

Oh, gracious me Says the other.

And this is my third son. My baby. My beautiful Ahmed.

He would be 18, she whispers.

Yes says the friend enthusiastically, I remember when he first started school

Hes a martyr also, says mum, with tears in her eyes.

After a pause and a deep sigh, the second Muslim mother looks wistfully at the photographs and says

They blow up so fast, dont they

It's funny that you call upon every stereotype of the Islamic faith with your hateful garbage, but you yourself are a walking, talking stereotype for conservatives. You are an intolerant bigot. STFU already.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

World War 1 and 2 was motivated not by religion.

6 million Jews reportedly have died in the holocaust but everyone overlooks the 25 million Russians who died not because of their religion not to mention the two nukes from US.

When a bomb blows up all it does is rearrange molecules. How can an atheist complain about such things?

 

[PearlWatson]

It's funny that you call upon every stereotype of the Islamic faith with your hateful garbage, but you yourself are a walking, talking stereotype for conservatives. You are an intolerant bigot. STFU already.

Stereotypes occur for a reason. Your last sentence was ironic.

Why should I be tolerant of an intolerant violent religion that wants me and my countrymen dead, or to convert me through force?

Did anyone actually read what MK wrote? He thought it great to take Christian children from their families through force and convert them to Islam and laughed about the dream of Islam taking over Europe.

Well, it's the obvious. We love Balkan people.(not all of them ) We consider Bosnians, Albanians, Kosovans and even Macedonians and Hungarians(this is another topic) as our brothers.

But I'd like to go a little bit back in the history to explain the bonds between the the Turks(not as the etnicity) and the Balkans' people.

That's mainly because of the Ottoman policy. Unlike the former turkish empires, Ottomans didn't care about the etnicities much and let lots of people from other etnicities, into it's government system to have high positions in the palace, military or religious states. A form of this was the "devşirme system", which is basically finding talented or bright christian boys, especially from the Balkans, taking them from their families(forcibly, sometimes), converting them into Islam and training them into the leadership positions in different areas, even to the top of the empire! One of the main reasons to executing this system was for stating that it's not an empire which only belongs to the turkic nobles but also to 30 different etnic citizen groups of the empire. It was also preventing the fights for the throne between the turkic nobles. (Before Ottomans, tens of turkic empire collapsed because of that throne issue.) With in the time, this system started to work well, because people were themselves wanting to go into the Palace.

Anyway, in the first place, the ottomans have always considered the Balkans as too important, because their ultimate dream was conquering the whole Europe hehe.

 

[Stoked]

Millsapa is for conservatives what Blaskswordsman is for Muslims.

 

[MK11]

Stereotypes occur for a reason. Your last sentence was ironic.

Why should I be tolerant of an intolerant violent religion that wants me and my countrymen dead, or to convert me through force?

Did anyone actually read what MK wrote? He thought it great to take Christian children from their families through force and convert them to Islam and laughed about the dream of Islam taking over Europe.

Did you read at all? I believe you didn't, duly.

Millsapa, please read again those sentences, I was just trying to be objective. I just tried to put a self-image. I could have just passed those things and not mentioned at all, if I were biased about the Ottomans. They had their bests and worsts just like the all historical nations/empires/countries. Even that smiley was a sarcasm bro! (I don't know if you're a she or he so don't get angry if you're a she)

I won't accuse you with being a bad reader but atleast you can try to read without any biases, can't you?

 

[Deleted member 848]

The Ottoman empire were the only Muslim empire (pretty sure) that ever forcibly converted people into Islam. Forced conversion are EXTREMELY blasphemous, and against islam right to the core. There's a reason that no sort of missionary work exists. Muslims are very very very against that sort of thing, the Ottoman's used faithful conversion not for the sake of faith, but rather, for political reasons. If that makes any sense, Sapa.

 

[MK11]

The Ottoman empire were the only Muslim empire (pretty sure) that ever forcibly converted people into Islam. Forced conversion are EXTREMELY blasphemous, and against islam right to the core. There's a reason that no sort of missionary work exists. Muslims are very very very against that sort of thing, the Ottoman's used faithful conversion not for the sake of faith, but rather, for political reasons. If that makes any sense, Sapa.

Thanks for the expanding dalamon, now, I'd like to add why it's EXTREMELY blasphemous to convert people into Islam.

Forced conversion is one of the biggest sins in Islam, because of, being a hypocrite(as a term which is used for ones pretending to be a muslim though he's/she's not) is more wrongdoing than not being a muslim at all, and a big sin, in Islam.

Forced conversions will only be cause for creating hypocrites, so it will be sinful for both sides and hence it is a big sin, in Islam.

BTW, a note for the biased readers; I'm not saying that not being a muslim is the wrong way, I can't decide for it, it's up to for anyone's job to select his/her religion, or not to have a religion at all.

And another note that may seem interesting to the ones who think Turkey is a rank Islamic country... Even though I'm not a helluva religous person, I was not allowed to practise my religion in the army and I won't be when I'm back there. There is hell of a secularism in Turkey way more than most of the western countries.

And one last thing, the ottoman empire is known in the history by not converting the areas which they take over, into Islam, they became that big owing to that policy, in the first place. The system of "Devşirme" was just a partial government policy to raise leaders for the empire.

 

[Siro]

The Ottoman empire were the only Muslim empire (pretty sure) that ever forcibly converted people into Islam. Forced conversion are EXTREMELY blasphemous, and against islam right to the core. There's a reason that no sort of missionary work exists. Muslims are very very very against that sort of thing, the Ottoman's used faithful conversion not for the sake of faith, but rather, for political reasons. If that makes any sense, Sapa.

That is simply not true. But I won't engage in that debate because I don't want to be lumped with Millsapa. Sooo, I'll broach it some other time.

Edit: It is true in the case of Christians and Jews. But not others. Not by a long shot.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Stereotypes happen for a reason?

That reason is the media.

The media picks up the black sheep's from the Muslim community and labels them as exemplary Muslims.

 

[Deleted member 848]

That is simply not true. But I won't engage in that debate because I don't want to be lumped with Millsapa. Sooo, I'll broach it some other time.

Edit: It is true in the case of Christians and Jews. But not others. Not by a long shot.

By "conversions", that is what I was referring to, in essence. I don't know if I could make the same claim for pagans that lived together with Muslims in the first millennium. It is something that I will need to research in depth before I could argue with you about it, and be able to offer good, educated insight. Regardless, I'd love to hear what you have to say on this topic some time in the near future.

Long story short though, I think we can both agree that Millsapa is completely incorrect with the notion that Muslim doctrine insists that we should forcibly convert christians, eh Siromar? Give credit where credit is due

 

[Siro]

By "conversions", that is what I was referring to, in essence. I don't know if I could make the same claim for pagans that lived together with Muslims in the first millennium. It is something that I will need to research in depth before I could argue with you about it, and be able to offer good, educated insight.

Long story short though, I think we can both agree that Millsapa is completely incorrect with the notion that Muslim doctrine insists that we should forcibly convert christians, eh Siromar? Give credit where credit is due

More than agree. Back in the day, the whole world was religious, so it was a matter of picking your poison. The Islamic world was leagues ahead of Christian Europe in every conceivable way (scientifically, socially, philosophically, etc). They were tolerant and progressive. In fact, if it wasn't for a chain of unfortunate events (the fragmentation of society along sectarian lines, conflict over rule, rise in fundamentalism, and the Mongol wars), humanity would have reached the age of Enlightenment a couple of hundred years earlier. The European Renaissance was the direct product of Muslim philosophy, and its influence on the great European religious thinkers, like Thomas Aquinas.

The world owe Muslims a lot. I have no gripe with that. But that was then, and this is now. And now, superior paradigms exist.

 

[Deleted member 848]

More than agree. Back in the day, the whole world was religious, so it was a matter of picking your poison. The Islamic world was leagues ahead of Christian Europe in every conceivable way (scientifically, socially, philosophically, etc). They were tolerant and progressive. In fact, if it wasn't for a chain of unfortunate events (the fragmentation of society along sectarian lines, conflict over rule, rise in fundamentalism, and the Mongol wars), humanity would have reached the age of Enlightenment a couple of hundred years earlier. The European Renaissance was the direct product of Muslim philosophy, and its influence on the great European religious thinkers, like Thomas Aquinas.

The world owe Muslims a lot. I have no gripe with that. But that was then, and this is now. And now, superior paradigms exist.

Your intellectual honesty is heartwarming. Although I might disagree with you in terms of what these "superior paradigms" are, I could potentially see where you'd be coming from with them. And hey, whatever makes you happy, a good human, a compassionate citizen in this world, I have no beef with. After all, thats essentially what every faith boils down to

 

[MK11]

That is simply not true. But I won't engage in that debate because I don't want to be lumped with Millsapa. Sooo, I'll broach it some other time.

Edit: It is true in the case of Christians and Jews. But not others. Not by a long shot.

I know for sure that Forced Conversion is not allowed by Islam. (not saying muslims had never did that, and I honestly don't know about the relation between Islam and the religions other than Christianity and Judaism, it would be another topic and I'd like to study as well on it, like dalamon)

 

[Deleted member 848]

I know for sure that Forced Conversion is not allowed by Islam. (not saying muslims had never did that, and I honestly don't know about the relation between Islam and the religions other than Christianity and Judaism, it would be another topic and I'd like to study as well on it, like dalamon)

/thread