anybody miss Jeffersuck?

[Brown Notes]

Jefferson was in that game. I saw him clearly in Kanter's left side low block moves.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Mike Brown is obviously a better big man developer than Phil Jackson too, as evidenced by how bad he was holding back Bynum.

Explain this please. I never said anyone was holding anybody back.

But you can bet if Jackson or Brown had a 19 or 20 year old Bynum showing obvious improvements he learned from a vet on the team, they wouldn't rush to get rid of that vet (assuming it wasn't hurting the cap and he was a good character guy and all that).

 

[SaltyDawg]

Not really. You kind of poison to every discussion you're a part of. You've thought that about as through as most of the stances you publicly take.

And I don't even terribly dislike you, and sometimes I even agree with some of your points (to a point).

Oh well. Such is life. Put me on ignore or deal with it.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Imagine Bynum with a $14mil a year big man coach. First ever player to average 50pts and 50 boards a game? I think so.........I think so...... (what's that you say? Your mind was just blown? Blame Al Jefferson for your mindgasm.)

Or you could say, "How good would Bynum be if he had spent his first few years practicing against and getting 1 on 1 tutoring from Olajuwon in his prime?" Or, "How good would Duncan have been if he had spent his first few years practicing against and getting 1 on 1 tutoring from David Robinson?"

We already know the answer to that second one.

 

[vslice02]

Or, "How good would Duncan have been if he had spent his first few years practicing against and getting 1 on 1 tutoring from David Robinson?"

We already know the answer to that second one.

Okay, I have no idea how this argument started, but that last point is absolutely absurd. Robinson did alot to help Duncan early in his career - particularly protecting him by guarding the opposing team's best bigman - but Duncan came into the league as polished and NBA-ready as you'll ever see a 7-footer.

Similar to Peyton Manning coming out of Tennessee, Duncan could've entered the draft as a junior and still been ready to play pro ball, but he stayed at Wake for his senior season and pretty much came out like a seasoned vet. Heck, as a rookie he nearly upset the '97-98 Jazz in the Western Conference Semis as the go-to guy.

Bynum was a raw prospect entering the NBA, and the fact that he was constantly getting injured and missing large chunks of time hurt his development more than any lack of proper "tutelage or mentoring."

 

[SaltyDawg]

Okay, I have no idea how this argument started, but that last point is absolutely absurd. Robinson did alot to help Duncan early in his career - particularly protecting him by guarding the opposing team's best bigman - but Duncan came into the league as polished and NBA-ready as you'll ever see a 7-footer.

Similar to Peyton Manning coming out of Tennessee, Duncan could've entered the draft as a junior and still been ready to play pro ball, but he stayed at Wake for his senior season and pretty much came out like a seasoned vet. Heck, as a rookie he nearly upset the '97-98 Jazz in the Western Conference Semis as the go-to guy.

Bynum was a raw prospect entering the NBA, and the fact that he was constantly getting injured and missing large chunks of time hurt his development more than any lack of proper "tutelage or mentoring."

I know Duncan was polished and ready. But he still absolutely benefited from having Robinson.

I remember reading how Duncan had spent the summer with Robinson and things like that.

My point in all of this is, there is absolutely some value in having a good mentor/tutor/practice player to teach the young guys.

Do some freakishly good players develop without it? Possibly. You might even say probably. Is it better to have it than not if everything else is equal? Probably. Is it obvious that Jefferson is having a positive effect on Favors and Kanter's post games? Yes. Is it foolish to interrupt this progress if we can afford to continue it? Absolutely.

People here want to trade Jefferson mostly because they have an issue with the way Corbin hands out minutes.

 

[craig2112]

Favors did alright tonight. 12-10
I like what I am seeing from him.

If jefferson had done that and given up 33 to Bynum, you would all be in here screaming for his head.

 

[Brown Notes]

Don't bother going there Craig.

Our young boys DID have a nice day. So did Bynum. If it was Al in the lineup you can be sure it would be all about Bynum's line. But the youngns have been very good. I can't wait to see great youngns with our already established players!

 

[sepanol]

I was hoping Utah could move Al by the deadline, but I agree with those who say Al takes way too much blame on this board.

The main reason Utah won this game was because Kobe couldn't hit his *** with a flyswatter.

Bynum went 12-14, while Gasol went 8-12.

They are the 2 of the best big men in the west, even though we defended well, its hard to stop them

 

[sepanol]

just this one game didn't make jefferson less valuable than he was before, but at least the young guys showed some promise that they can play big against tough teams and proved that Jefferson is very expandable.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

A $14 million per year coach. Brilliant.

I don't think Jefferson is (pure) junk anymore, and I wish the guy the best, but that? That might actually, literally be the worst argument I have ever heard on this board.

Agreed. Paying $14 million per year to coach Favors and Kanter on post moves is plain dumb and poor reason to keep Big Al around, if that's the primary motivation. I can't help but think that some retired post-player with as good or better bonafides than Jefferson could be had to coach the youngsters on post play at a faction of the cost.

I go back and forth with Jefferson. I think he is actually a quality player who in the right system would thrive and help his team win. Dredging up his Minny days as evidence he can't contribute to a winner is, I think, unfair. He was surrounded by lousy talent the entire time he was there. Love, who I think no one doubts is a quality player, is still having problems getting Minny above .500, and he's right now surrounded by far superior talent than anything Jefferson had to work with. I just like the way the offense works without Big Al in the lineup, and I think we are defensively better as well. Favors doesn't yet have Big Al's offensive game, but he more than compensates for it with his rebounding and defense and his contribution to ball movement. I am confident as well that his offensive game has yet to come near to tapping its potential. Thus, I conclude Big Al needs to go, and I wish him nothing but success.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Agreed. Paying $14 million per year to coach Favors and Kanter on post moves is plain dumb and poor reason to keep Big Al around, if that's the primary motivation. I can't help but think that some retired post-player with as good or better bonafides than Jefferson could be had to coach the youngsters on post play at a faction of the cost.

I go back and forth with Jefferson. I think he is actually a quality player who in the right system would thrive and help his team win. Dredging up his Minny days as evidence he can't contribute to a winner is, I think, unfair. He was surrounded by lousy talent the entire time he was there. Love, who I think no one doubts is a quality player, is still having problems getting Minny above .500, and he's right now surrounded by far superior talent than anything Jefferson had to work with. I just like the way the offense works without Big Al in the lineup, and I think we are defensively better as well. Favors doesn't yet have Big Al's offensive game, but he more than compensates for it with his rebounding and defense and his contribution to ball movement. I am confident as well that his offensive game has yet to come near to tapping its potential. Thus, I conclude Big Al needs to go, and I wish him nothing but success.

So, assuming the Jazz are going to spend that money 1 way or the other... What do you think the Jazz should spend it on?

Some wing player to take minutes from Burks and Hayward? Some other big guy to take minutes from the young bigs?

I hope this new player has the chemistry that Al Jefferson brings to the team.

I know we need a point guard. But we're already paying Devin Harris a lot of money. So if it's a point guard you're after, you should be looking at Devin's salary as "must go" and not Jefferson's.

The fact of the matter is it's pretty stupid to get rid of someone for salary reasons when the Jazz are just fine financially.

If the dude is obviously helping the young guys develop, is a positive locker room presence, a good character guy, and also a pretty good player on the court when called upon. You don't dump him strictly for financial reasons when you're not in any financial trouble. Getting rid of Jefferson won't make the Jazz players in the free agent market any sooner.

If the guy is demanding 35 minutes and to be the #1 option, that's different. But this is a good character guy who has said plenty of times that he knows they're the future of the team, and he wants to help get them ready.

People want to dump him because they don't like how Corbin uses him. That's foolish. You dump the coach if he's incompetent, not the players. And there is no financial benefit to dumping him so that doesn't make sense either.

Why does anyone care how much he makes? This isn't a Kirilenko situation where he makes a ton of money, is a terrible locker room guy, contributes very little most games, cries about minutes and his role, and the Jazz are in the luxury tax.

This is the exact opposite. He doesn't make all that much (not as much as AK anyway), is a good locker room guy, usually plays well (even if you don't like his style he's still pretty good at it), and has indicated that developing the young bigs as the future of the franchise is one of his priorities. All this while the Jazz are well under the tax and he only has like 1 more year on his deal after this one anyway.

 

[zman1527]

Jefferson gets such an undeserved bad rep on this site.

He is the main one working with Favors and Kanter on their post games.

Without him, their development would be nowhere near where it is right now.

So let him retire and be a coach.

 

[larryselbows]

So, assuming the Jazz are going to spend that money 1 way or the other... What do you think the Jazz should spend it on?

Some wing player to take minutes from Burks and Hayward? Some other big guy to take minutes from the young bigs?

I hope this new player has the chemistry that Al Jefferson brings to the team.

I know we need a point guard. But we're already paying Devin Harris a lot of money. So if it's a point guard you're after, you should be looking at Devin's salary as "must go" and not Jefferson's.

The fact of the matter is it's pretty stupid to get rid of someone for salary reasons when the Jazz are just fine financially.

If the dude is obviously helping the young guys develop, is a positive locker room presence, a good character guy, and also a pretty good player on the court when called upon. You don't dump him strictly for financial reasons when you're not in any financial trouble. Getting rid of Jefferson won't make the Jazz players in the free agent market any sooner.

If the guy is demanding 35 minutes and to be the #1 option, that's different. But this is a good character guy who has said plenty of times that he knows they're the future of the team, and he wants to help get them ready.

People want to dump him because they don't like how Corbin uses him. That's foolish. You dump the coach if he's incompetent, not the players. And there is no financial benefit to dumping him so that doesn't make sense either.

Why does anyone care how much he makes? This isn't a Kirilenko situation where he makes a ton of money, is a terrible locker room guy, contributes very little most games, cries about minutes and his role, and the Jazz are in the luxury tax.

This is the exact opposite. He doesn't make all that much (not as much as AK anyway), is a good locker room guy, usually plays well (even if you don't like his style he's still pretty good at it), and has indicated that developing the young bigs as the future of the franchise is one of his priorities. All this while the Jazz are well under the tax and he only has like 1 more year on his deal after this one anyway.

Do you just argue for the sake of arguing?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

High school in Mississippi is not the Big 10.

What "ability" does Jefferson have that Humphries doesn't? His footwork. And he did not have that footwork his first few years in the league.

Humphries clearly had more potential at the time. Jefferson is the better player right now because Humphries never reached his potential, while Jefferson reached his.

Again, Jefferson was fresh out of high school but they were the same age. 1 was fat, slow, and weak but dominated Mississippi high school. The other was strong, athletic, built like a tank, and had dominated the Big 10. Same age, same height. One obviously had more potential, and it wasn't Jefferson.

Humphries shot 44% in the Big Ten as a PF. Not great at all. Jefferson shots 53% and averaged 7ppg game as a rookie fresh out of HS.

He had more potential it's obvious. It's obvious because we have hindsight. Jefferson was still fat and slow when he was putting up 20 and 10 in Minnesota. Humphries was still built like a tank and doing nothing. Potential isn't all in your physique. Or are there # disparities all about development along the way?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Do you just argue for the sake of arguing?

Right, because I'm the only 1 on ths sure who has ever posted an opinion. Got it.

 

[larryselbows]

Right, because I'm the only 1 on ths sure who has ever posted an opinion. Got it.

Lulz, saw this on reddit, feel like it applies.

View attachment 767

 

[orangello]

Hasn't Bynum been working with Kareem for years?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Humphries shot 44% in the Big Ten as a PF. Not great at all. Jefferson shots 53% and averaged 7ppg game as a rookie fresh out of HS.

He had more potential it's obvious. It's obvious because we have hindsight. Jefferson was still fat and slow when he was putting up 20 and 10 in Minnesota. Humphries was still built like a tank and doing nothing. Potential isn't all in your physique. Or are there # disparities all about development along the way?

Humphries shot 44% while scoring 22 points, grabbing 10 rebounds, blocking 1 shot, and getting 1 steal per game. This was as an athletic 18 year old freshman in a major college conference.

That is definitely more potential than the fat kid who never played in college, is the same age, and same height.

I'm not disputing that Jefferson turned out to be the much better player. But that does not mean Humphries never had more potential.

The Jazz did not draft Humphries and leave Jefferson on the board because they thought Jefferson had more potential.

That doesn't even really matter though. The fact of the matter is Jefferson is absolutely helping the development of Favors and Kanter. To interrupt that development and hurt the team chemistry would be foolish. Especially when Jefferson's current contract isn't hurting the Jazz, won't hurt the Jazz in the future, and his play on the court is pretty good too. He may not be the greatest player in the world but he certainly isn't the worst either.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Humphries shot 44% while scoring 22 points, grabbing 10 rebounds, blocking 1 shot, and getting 1 steal per game. This was as an athletic 18 year old freshman in a major college conference.

That is definitely more potential than the fat kid who never played in college, is the same age, and same height.

I'm not disputing that Jefferson turned out to be the much better player. But that does not mean Humphries never had more potential.

The Jazz did not draft Humphries and leave Jefferson on the board because they thought Jefferson had more potential.

That doesn't even really matter though. The fact of the matter is Jefferson is absolutely helping the development of Favors and Kanter. To interrupt that development and hurt the team chemistry would be foolish. Especially when Jefferson's current contract isn't hurting the Jazz, won't hurt the Jazz in the future, and his play on the court is pretty good too. He may not be the greatest player in the world but he certainly isn't the worst either.

We will get more value for him in a trade this offseason than will we get from his teachings.