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Matthews: Jazz never made me an offer. I would have accepted less.

Borat said:
I get your point, and still it is not valid. Wolves are WELL under the CAP without Jefferson. They don't need Dampier to absorb any contract, then can flat out accept it with their CAP room. Even if they were not under CAP, they could use TPE they got from us to do exactly what you are proposing with Dampier. The bottom line is Dampier has the same value as TPE. Actually worse, because TPE is good for a year, and Damp's contract has to be terminated before start of season. No matter how you slice it, Dallas having Dampier does not give them any advantage of our TPE. If anything, TPE has the advantage here, as I explained before, plus we had better draft picks than Dallas.
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Dude, nevermind. You don't get what I'm saying. Show me a link saying Dampiers contract is guaranteed once the season starts? From what I can find there is no date on it so anyone can cut him anytime they want and prorate the contract.
 
MilesDeep said:
All this moaning about Wesley is truly incredible. The Jazz take an undrafted player, pay him 400+k and sign him for a year. He works hard, but doesn't play all that well at first, gets a chance because of injury and a trade, and becomes an honest good player, really turning it on in the playoffs. Jazz make it clear that resigning him is a top priority. His agent tells them that they are thinking MLE max. KOC says "wow, I guess you can find a team willing to pay that and then we'll talk." In the meantime, Matthews says the hometeam gets no discount. Portland, with an endless moneypit, makes an absurd offer with a special frontload to really screw Utah, but they probably honestly thought Utah would match. Matthews, thinking Utah would match, signs the offer without thinking about the actuality of Utah not matching. Utah, with his salary and cap implications would have forked over probably in excess of 15 million to keep Matthews this first year. To recap for the slow ones, Utah helps Matthews go from a 400000 undrafted player to a whopping 7mil/per, that's only an increase of 1800ish%, and the hometeam doesn't get a discount. I really wanted him to be here, but to put the blame on KOC is some sort of dumbassery.
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Welcome to the board MilesDeep. That explains it pretty well.
 
KOC probably never did talk directly with Matthews about a contract. That is what agents are for. The agent was probably trying to highball the jazz and KOC said we will see what the market sets the price at and then go from there. The blazers made and offer and the Jazz didnt think it was in their best interest to match it. I agree. I like matthews but he isnt worth a full mid level. maybe in the future he could be, but right now I havnt seen anything to tell me he is. Not when you can get someone nearly as good at a fourth the price.
 
Matthews: No hometown discount for Jazz

KIRKLAND: Last thought. Is there a home team discount coming or does the offer trump everything else?

MATTHEWS: I got to go with the business decision. The best thing for the Jazz is they have the last take, the last hand to play.

Wes you told everything a while ago. As we can see from your words. You as the Boozer. Money....Money...Money.


Good luck! I Hope you enjoy your 10 - 15 mins per game)
 
ShaggyReAL said:
Dude, nevermind. You don't get what I'm saying. Show me a link saying Dampiers contract is guaranteed once the season starts? From what I can find there is no date on it so anyone can cut him anytime they want and prorate the contract.
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Did you not understand that Wolves are under the CAP, so they can absorb any salaries anyway with out Dampier's contract? And how is Dampier contract better than TPE, when once the season begins you have to pay the guy, when you don't have to pay for TPE. Why don't you give it some though before responding next time. It's really not that hard to grasp that TPE is as good or better than Dampier's contract.
 
Reality is always somewhere in the middle.

I imagine when the two camps sat down, Matthews' camp was adamant that they could get the MLE elsewhere. KOC obviously balked at that. Starting negotiations at the damn ceiling really backs one side into a corner. I also imagine KOC through some initial stuff out there. I'm guessing 3 years. I doubt he threw a monetary amount out there since Matthews felt he was worth the ceiling. Thus KOC said if you can find it, go get it. We'll see if we match.

No formal offer necessary. If the other side starts way up there, and you believe it's half that, why even make a formal offer? The guy is going to look elsewhere no matter what you do.
 
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Darkwing Duck said:
Reality is always somewhere in the middle.

I imagine when the two camps sat down, Matthews' camp was adamant that they could get the MLE elsewhere. KOC obviously balked at that. Starting negotiations at the damn ceiling really backs one side into a corner. I also imagine KOC through some initial stuff out there. I'm guessing 3 years. I doubt he through a monetary amount out there since Matthews felt he was worth the ceiling. Thus KOC said if you can find it, go get it. We'll see if we match.

No formal offer necessary. If the other side starts way up there, and you believe it's half that, why even make a formal offer? The guy is going to look elsewhere no matter what you do.
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+1
 
Darkwing Duck said:
I also imagine KOC through some initial stuff out there. I'm guessing 3 years.
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Wes was adamant about about Jazz NOT making an offer. I have no reason to doubt that. I am sure Wes would not just misstate the fact like that. With that said, I don't know if he is sincere about not feeling out the market and taking less money if we made an offer right away, since it is not a factual, but purely hypothetical scenario. We will never know, since we didn't make one, but I don't think we can just assume he would have accepted a fair offer, just because he said he "might" have done that. Again, we will never know this.
 
Borat said:
Wes was adamant about about Jazz NOT making an offer. I have no reason to doubt that. I am sure Wes would not just misstate the fact like that. With that said, I don't know if he is sincere about not feeling out the market and taking less money if we made an offer right away, since it is not a factual, but purely hypothetical scenario. We will never know, since we didn't make one, but I don't think we can just assume he would accepted a fair offer, just because he said he "might" have done that. Again, we will never know this.
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From Siler:

"Wesley Matthews charges Jazz never made him an offer, but team was told from beginning it would take max midlevel to re-sign him."

"Jazz wanted to talk about three- and four-year contract options. Why would they start bidding at the ceiling of what could be offered?"
 
Darkwing Duck said:
From Siler:

"Wesley Matthews charges Jazz never made him an offer, but team was told from beginning it would take max midlevel to re-sign him."

"Jazz wanted to talk about three- and four-year contract options. Why would they start bidding at the ceiling of what could be offered?"
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This does not contradict what Wes is saying nor previous Siler reports. Wes said he wanted Midlevel. Jazz told him to go find it somewhere else. No counter offer was made. It IS that simple.
 
Borat said:
This does not contradict what Wes is saying nor previous Siler reports. Wes said he wanted Midlevel. Jazz told him to go find it somewhere else. No counter offer was made. It IS that simple.
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It is. If someone comes in saying they can get the max, what's the point of offering anything less? And why would you do it if you didn't think he was worth the max? Negotiations at that point are moot. He's going out to look for the MLE no matter what you do.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
It is. If someone comes in saying they can get the max, what's the point of offering anything less? And why would you do it if you didn't think he was worth the max? Negotiations at that point are moot. He's going out to look for the MLE no matter what you do.
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That's the whole point of negotiations. One party says one number, another party gives a counter offer, and you go back and fourth until you reach agreement (or impasse). In this case Wes asked 5-34 (i.e. midlevel MAX), and we never made ANY kind of counter offer, but told Wes to go elsewhere. What's in debate here?
 
Borat said:
That's the whole point of negotiations. One party says one number, another party gives a counter offer, and you go back and fourth until you reach agreement (or impasse). In this case Wes asked 5-34 (i.e. midlevel MAX), and we never made ANY kind of counter offer, but told Wes to go elsewhere. What's in debate here?
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Well, if a guy starts at something double what you'd expect to pay, an impasse would happen immediately. I don't think any counter offers would be going anywhere, since I doubt KOC would do anything above 4/16 without seeing what the market would say. And there's no way Matthews would accept 4/16 if he believed he could get the MLE.
 
There is such a thing as being too far apart to negotiate. The Jazz obviously didn't think that max MLE was realistic and it was obviously substantially more than they were even going to consider offering. I mean, think about it. If you were interested in buying a car and after researching it and looking at your finances, you determined you wanted to pay around $15,000, but since you really like the car you may be willing to pay as much as $18,000. So you go in and start negotiating and the seller says that they really think it's worth $30,000. What room do you have to negotiate in that situation?
 
Why do you guys keep playing KOC's role in your imagination and keep thinking the best of his intentions and defending him? Maybe Matthews' agent had unofficially been contacted by Portland telling him they were going to make an offer in the neighborhood of MLE, maybe the 25 for 5 that was first reported. And the agent began postering with KOC. But instead of KOC making a reasonable offer, say 16-20 for 4 years / 15 for 3 years, which Matthews may have accepted, KOC just shuts the door and says okay, go get it. And what happens, same thing as with Millsap. But after signing AJ, no way we could match Matthews because we would have to pay double. That seems like the most reasonable scenario to me based on the stories we've heard.
 
write4u...

Do you really think a guy who does this for a living, and does it quite well mind you, had a free agent that he decided to sign last off season and opted to just treat him casually and hope he gets low balled elsewhere?

I am sure KOC had spoken ad nauseam with the Millers and had hammered out an absolute ceiling offer they would give him. When Matthews camp came in and said it's the full MLE or bust, KOC said go talk to some teams and then let us know.

What else is he supposed to do? Set a ceiling right away and tell Matthews to take it or leave it?
 
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