Mormon Temple ceremony.

[colton]

I've actually got a biography of him on my own book shelf, although I haven't read it in ~20 years. I'll see if it draws any conclusions on the matter.

So, kicky, here's the biography I have: https://www.amazon.com/Porter-Rockwell-Richard-Lloyd-Dewey/dp/0929753232/

I looked up the relevant chapter last night, and it comes down quite strongly on the "Rockwell didn't do it" side. So I guess we're down to dueling experts and I don't have a way to judge whether your biography of mine is superior. I suppose I could make a list of the evidence the book presents arguing against Rockwell's involvement, but I don't have time right now.

 

[Gameface]

So we all agree that Rockwell was a killer but then fiercely debate if he's responsible for this particular attempted killing? To what end? Does his lack of involvement in this, or involvement in this, fundamentally change who he was?

 

[The Thriller]

Either Rockwell on his own (since he did threaten the guy) or someone he served. I don't think it was at all unclear what I meant. The only reason to use "the Mormons" is because that would be Rockwell's motivation for the crime.

If your argument is purely linguistic then you're just characteristically getting your panties in a bunch.

As long as we're airing grievances, I'd like to request that you stop being such a loony in political threads. As a liberal it honestly causes me pain to know that many people are grouping me in with you when they read whatever you're writing.

Noted. In my defense, I think it is pretty lame that people would really take anything I have to say about politics too seriously. I would imagine that at least 80 % of our political threads aren't meant to be taken serious and the posts written are to poke fun at our system/parties. Forgive me for trying to have fun in political forums that were made to be silly and stupid in. But your concern is noted.

Lets be fair here, your comment, "The Mormons" could have meant a variety of things... From the more wealthy sections of the membership, the 12, the 1st Presidency, Joseph Smith's family, to Joseph Smith himself. I honestly wasn't trying to get into a grammar debate with you but ask you to clarify what you meant. Lets suppose right now that Rockwell did in fact attempt to assassinate the Gov... Was he acting independently? Did he feel like he was defending the larger "Mormon" group? Or did he receive direct financial compensation or orders from someone high up in the church's hierarchy? Is there any evidence that can clarify?

 

[Hartsock]

So we all agree that Rockwell was a killer but then fiercely debate if he's responsible for this particular attempted killing? To what end? Does his lack of involvement in this, or involvement in this, fundamentally change who he was?

I think mormons believe Rockwell was a killer in the sense that soldiers in the army are killers, sure they have killed people but it is justified becuase of the situation or time. Just my take on it.

 

[The Thriller]

So we all agree that Rockwell was a killer but then fiercely debate if he's responsible for this particular attempted killing? To what end? Does his lack of involvement in this, or involvement in this, fundamentally change who he was?

Can anyone specify who he killed and why?

Killing babies in cold blood is different than defending himself or fellow church members from mobsters or Indians.

I before we send him to the chair we should probably discuss the killings themselves. Being a descendant of Mormons Pioneers, I have some in my family who wrote in the journals about villainous Indians, foul Europeans traveling through, and many other dangerous people crossing this dangerous frontier. I'd hate to throw the book at them had they used a firearm to defend themselves or their families.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Can anyone specify who he killed and why?

Killing babies in cold blood is different than defending himself or fellow church members from mobsters or Indians.

I before we send him to the chair we should probably discuss the killings themselves. Being a descendant of Mormons Pioneers, I have some in my family who wrote in the journals about villainous Indians, foul Europeans traveling through, and many other dangerous people crossing this dangerous frontier. I'd hate to throw the book at them had they used a firearm to defend themselves or their families.

Unless that book is The Book of Mormon.

 

[Gameface]

Can anyone specify who he killed and why?

Killing babies in cold blood is different than defending himself or fellow church members from mobsters or Indians.

I before we send him to the chair we should probably discuss the killings themselves. Being a descendant of Mormons Pioneers, I have some in my family who wrote in the journals about villainous Indians, foul Europeans traveling through, and many other dangerous people crossing this dangerous frontier. I'd hate to throw the book at them had they used a firearm to defend themselves or their families.

I'm also a descendant of Mormon pioneers. You may have heard of him, his name is Brigham Young. I too have been blessed by my Grandma with the reading of journals describing hostile indians. Why wouldn't the stupid indians just leave their homeland once the Mormons got here? Obviously when they refused to leave and/or tried to do something about it their killing was justified.

I think the mountain meadow massacre let the outsiders know who was boss 'round these here parts.

 

[Hartsock]

I'm also a descendant of Mormon pioneers. You may have heard of him, his name is Brigham Young. I too have been blessed by my Grandma with the reading of journals describing hostile indians. Why wouldn't the stupid indians just leave their homeland once the Mormons got here? Obviously when they refused to leave and/or tried to do something about it their killing was justified.

I think the mountain meadow massacre let the outsiders know who was boss 'round these here parts.

I think it was a bunch of mormons doing something stupid, not something endorsed by the LDS church. Once again no one here really knows what happened.

 

[Dr. Jones]

My business partner owned the land at MM and was the one that donated it to the LDS church. He did excavation and recreated the battle from a boots of the ground perspective. He said that books have been written and a SLC news channel knowingly did a story that was factually bunk even after he proved it to them. They just shrugged and ran the story anyway because they didn't want to have to shoot the show over again and re-write it.

I have no point other than historical facts can be difficult, if not impossible, to decipher.

 

[Gameface]

I think it was a bunch of mormons doing something stupid, not something endorsed by the LDS church. Once again no one here really knows what happened.

Regardless if it was sanctioned by the church or not it DID let everyone know who was boss 'round these here parts, did it not?

 

[Stoked]

I'm also a descendant of Mormon pioneers. You may have heard of him, his name is Brigham Young. I too have been blessed by my Grandma with the reading of journals describing hostile indians. Why wouldn't the stupid indians just leave their homeland once the Mormons got here? Obviously when they refused to leave and/or tried to do something about it their killing was justified.

I think the mountain meadow massacre let the outsiders know who was boss 'round these here parts.

Haun's Mill.

 

[Hartsock]

I'm not totally sure who is boss around here so it must not have worked. I think whether or not it was sanctioned by the church is a pretty big deal though, if the LDS church told them to kill anything that crossed "their" territory just to prove a point then ya, thats pretty messed up and the church shoul answer for it. If it was some paranoid wackos that were trying to protect their families, crops, animals, whatever, or were just looking to start **** then that is a completely different thing. I have a hard time believing the church sanctioned a mass murder in a type of pisssing contest with the indians or america or whomever.

 

[Gameface]

I'm not totally sure who is boss around here so it must not have worked. I think whether or not it was sanctioned by the church is a pretty big deal though, if the LDS church told them to kill anything that crossed "their" territory just to prove a point then ya, thats pretty messed up and the church shoul answer for it. If it was some paranoid wackos that were trying to protect their families, crops, animals, whatever, or were just looking to start **** then that is a completely different thing. I have a hard time believing the church sanctioned a mass murder in a type of pisssing contest with the indians or america or whomever.

Yeah, I've picked up from this thread that everytime there is any reason to believe the the Church itself or high ranking members of the church did something naughty that church members go to great lengths to not believe it.

I think it's mostly the disadvantage of the Latter Day creation of the church so that there are many conflicting accounts of what really happened. If the church was 2000 years old it would be much easier to white wash the blemishes.

 

[Gameface]

Haun's Mill.

Are you saying that the mistreatment LDS people suffered justifies their paranoia that outsiders would try to hurt them and therefore the actions they took preemptively to stop that from happening again?

 

[Hartsock]

Yeah, I've picked up from this thread that everytime there is any reason to believe the the Church itself or high ranking members of the church did something naughty that church members go to great lengths to not believe it.I think it's mostly the disadvantage of the Latter Day creation of the church so that there are many conflicting accounts of what really happened. If the church was 2000 years old it would be much easier to white wash the blemishes.

FYI I am not a member, I was raised in it ( sort of, hardly if ever went ) but I have not stepped foot inside a church for anything other than basketball in 10 years. So I don't have a team per say, I just think what I think I guess, you are free to do the same.

I have also picked up in this thread that whenever there is bad that happens where church members are involved most non members go to great lengths to prove it was an order from a high ranking official, not just someone who happens to be mormon doing something dumb. It goes both ways sir.

 

[Stoked]

Are you saying that the mistreatment LDS people suffered justifies their paranoia that outsiders would try to hurt them and therefore the actions they took preemptively to stop that from happening again?

Does it justify their paranoia? I'd say yes.

Does it justify Mountain Meadows? No.

My point was that alot of crap went down and the full truth about what happened will never truly be known.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I too have a hard time believing the church itself called the shots at MM. I have no issues that certain people, regardless of faith, can act in such a way. I believe high-ranking members/prophets have abused power, etc, but I don't really care. Every religion has their soiled moments in history .. because there are real people involved .. and ain't none of us perfect.

 

[Stoked]

Yeah, I've picked up from this thread that everytime there is any reason to believe the the Church itself or high ranking members of the church did something naughty that church members go to great lengths to not believe it.

I think it's mostly the disadvantage of the Latter Day creation of the church so that there are many conflicting accounts of what really happened. If the church was 2000 years old it would be much easier to white wash the blemishes.

People tend to forget that the men in charge of the church are still men and able to make mistakes. A popular refrain is that the church is perfect and the people in it are not.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Does it justify their paranoia? I'd say yes.

Does it justify Mountain Meadows? No.

My point was that alot of crap went down and the full truth about what happened will never truly be known.

What would MM have to do woth paranoia? That's a strecth of laughable proportions.

 

[Gameface]

FYI I am not a member, I was raised in it ( sort of, hardly if ever went ) but I have not stepped foot inside a church for anything other than basketball in 10 years. So I don't have a team per say, I just think what I think I guess, you are free to do the same.

I have also picked up in this thread that whenever there is bad that happens where church members are involved most non members go to great lengths to prove it was an order from a high ranking official, not just someone who happens to be mormon doing something dumb. It goes both ways sir.

I agree with this.

I'm going to step back from this thread for today. I feel like I'm getting a little too confrontational and its really not my intent to offend LDS people.